To get my 3 year old baptised in an attempt to get into a Catholic school

[nestisflown]

AIBU on two levels:

1. to want to baptise my 3 year old and start attending local mass weekly in order to get into one of the best schools in the area (and our closest school, although the next closest secular school is also an excellent one). Is this morally dubious? Or do lots of parents do the same?

1. to think that my transparent plan will work and help my child get a place even though we'll have been attending mass for less than a year by the time applications are made...and the applications want proof of "sustained weekly attendance". It doesnt define sustained though

My reasons for wanting my child to go to Catholic school are: (1.) It is a great school academically; (2) it's our closest school; (3) it's the only good faith school close to us (there's a CofE school but it's doesn't perform well academically), and as a non-Catholic but practising Christian, I'd quite like to see faith incorporated into my child's school day...even in a different denomination.

Has anyone done this? Has anyone succeeded?

Do you know where the vast majority of their funding comes from though? The taxpayers whose children will never get a chance to benefit from that education.

Some of us contribute to those collections with the hope that all children who want to can have a chance to benefit from the school. There’s no reason why SVP couldn’t contribute to the uniforms of non-catholic children.

It is ridiculous you have to even consider it.
My DC go to a Catholic school, there are no restrictions on other religions. There are many children with different religions attending the school. They even discuss other faiths.
They don't pray all day, they go to mass once a week, I've been honest with my DC there is no proof just faith, they know of other religion, none believers. I sometimes think God is like Santa but then get scared I'll be struck down 😂

Why is it different in the UK if all under the Catholic schools are run by God's staff.

I wouldn't do it. You are signing your kid up for more than just a good school. Its 7 years or more of learning how they are full of sin, judging others and homophobia.

I remember hearing my friends 7 year old learning a prayer asking to forgive her sin. Made me feel sick.

Yep we have a "voluntary " school fund of 60£ a year. Most things ,like trips also cost more than the state schools around here. There are some things that we need to buy/provide compared to other schools as well.

But it's an amazing school, not just academically, and DD absolutely loves it. It was stroke of luck I decided to baptise her as Catholic when she was a baby(and I confirmed) because schools didn't even cross my mind when I did it.

She did get baptised quite late, at nearly 2, due to me having to do the course and being out of the country for personal reasons.

I remember hearing my friends 7 year old learning a prayer asking to forgive her sin. Made me feel sick.

Why? It's part of nearly all religions. If they believe they believe. Nothing to do with you.

I suppose its controversial but I think state faith schools should be abolished and converted to regular schools. All kids deserve a great education. Active discrimination should not be allowed to affect that. FWIW, I don't think I'd want my kids being taught things I truly don't believe in. I don't like that the school is discriminating and would like to get one up on them, but my principles are better than that. Also, other schools wont be 'uplifting' if the bright kids only go to one school.

deepflatflyer, So you're complaining that Catholic schools employ Catholic staff? How would you expect them to uphold Catholic ethos and teachings if not through the staff?! I only wish it were true that most staff were Catholic, in reality it varies hugely from school to school (and is mostly self-selecting anyway, based on my experience as a teacher - many more Catholics apply than non-Catholics).

Catholic parents are generally happy to know that the school counsellor, nurse, TAs, and of course governors, are Catholic. The whole idea of a Catholic education is that it is a holistic formation of the human person, not just a teaching of doctrine. It matters that the people surrounding and supporting the children want to help in their Christian formation, otherwise a Catholic school would just be a secular school with extra RE lessons.

In any case, apart from the protected posts, a Catholic would only be employed over a non-Catholic if they were equal candidates in all other respects. If X is a better candidate than Y, then X will be employed even though Y is Catholic and X isn't. Apart from the senior roles which require a practising Catholic.

@Fink thanks for your detailed post. I know you think otherwise but I am interested in opinions such as yours, from practising Catholics.

I wasn't aware of (1) and (2) so I definitely need to do more research about the Catholic faith, and in particular what baptism means to Catholics, before I can proceed.

Re (3), I guess my opinion will likely change once I've researched more about (1) And (2) but I guess in my head I was justifying it as not "true" baptism, but rather a symbol of parental willingness for future commitment to the faith- since a child that young can't be baptised in the true biblical sense.

Re (4) - yes, you and some pp have mentioned this. From your insights it doesn't look like my plan will work anyway as I'm attempting it too late. I'm not baptised Catholic so it doesn't look like I can do that in time, even if I wanted to (which I don't).

(5) is an interesting point. I get where you're coming from, and that is an unfortunate consequence of non believing parents who are successful in their attempts to get their child into well performing faith schools. However, why is a non-local Catholic child's desire to attend a Catholic school more important than a local secular child's desire and right to get the best possible education? Either way, someone will lose out.

“But if religious parents want their children to have a strong religious element to their children’s education then that’s fair enough.”

Why? Why should people of faith have a choice of a third more tax payer funded schools than people without a faith?

And incidentally, it’s not being religious that makes them “better” schools- it’s being selective. Undersubscribed faith schools are no better than any other school with the same catchment.

If you are a practising Christian and plan on lying to the church and lying to the school I think you may be on morally dubious ground.

Yabu. You've openly stated you don't believe in 50% of Catholic practises. But you are prepared to what amounts to lying to get your child in a Catholic school. Also a lot of outdated ideas on here about how Catholic schools run. At our local secondary Catholic school the temporary head and half of senior staff are not Catholic as are half the staff. We've had transgender speakers come in to schools to support transgender pupils. There is a wide catchment area serving various towns and cities. Changes have been made to reflect current society etc. But I still think you are wrong to send a child to a school when you don't believe in the religion.

@RafaIsTheKingOfClay, the SVP do provide help to anyone in need, regardless of faith and type of school, it's just that it happens to be mainly Catholics who ask for help, since they're most aware of it.

All kids deserve a great education.
Very true . This is what we should really strive for. But we don't do we? Or the ones that are writing to their MO's,are vocal about it,fundraise are involved etc aren't making quite enough noise.

Because the state of education is dire. Schools are struggling and the kids get at best an ok education.

Everyone is saying it's not fair, but there's no talk about getting better education for their/other kids. Just ensuring the "others" don't get a better education.

Abolishing faith schools won't ensure everyone gets a great education. It just ensures that the ones that might possibly get one won't either.

Compared to the moral bankruptcy of state-funded religious discrimination against four-year-olds, OP’s suggestion seems pretty mild in the moral dubiousness stakes.

There are also some bizarre views on this thread about the actual requirements of admissions codes. They do not require parental faith. They must rely on objective and measurable criteria of participation, not of belief itself. Some schools are attendance only, some may require parents to make more active commitments like baptism. But no admission code seeks to make a window into men’s souls, to adopt a phrase.

In theory I don't think you are wrong for wanting to do this. Lots of people do, and I did it before we moved because I did not want my kids going to our nearest school because it was awful. Got the kids baptised as babies, went to mass etc. In the end we moved and our nearest school was really good so I didn't need to do it in the end, and I am so glad because I didn't really want them going through the whole holy communion thing anyway, I was only concerned about the education.

However, you aren't Catholic yourself? And your child is already 3 years old? I would say that your chances are slim to none surely?

I haven't read the whole thread BUT

Can I just say that as a parent who has used a catholic school like this before, they are NOT all they are cracked up to be, necessarily.

My daughter attended one for a short time (had been in a private school that suddenly closed). It was rated Outstanding by Ofsted. Based mainly on SATS results imo.

Once she was there, I noticed the following things;

• Children with SEN being managed out. Kids who needed to use wheelchairs being managed out.

• Catholic kids whose parents were on the PTA getting preferential treatment. The SAME kids over and over again getting main parts in plays, opportunities that the others didn't.

• children who were not doing well enough (by the school's standards) having to miss fun activities to do extra work so they didn't pull down the school SATS results.

• rampant nepotism by the head. The head employing staff who were all in her family or extended family. Which obviously caused conflict of interests.

• in my daughters class photos of the children were arranged on the wall into groups which could clearly be identified as;

The very bright kids
The kids who were doing just ok
The kids for whom English was not their first language.
The 'naughty' kids

Be careful what you wish for is all I'm saying. Sometimes a school is not at all what it seems to be. Luckily my daughter no longer goes to this school. She now attends a thrive school where there is a much bigger socioeconomic background but she certainly has thrived there and had way more opportunities.

Go to the polish Catholic Church in my area as the priest fabricates the forms so I have been told by many

I couldn’t stomach it personally . I stopped attending for personal reasons and the idea of attending every week and lying stuck in
My craw . So whilst my DC friends floated off to the ofsted outstanding we are at the one around the corner instead . Which is absolutely fine .

Remember you will have to lie for years

Lie to a priest, lie to the others you
Worship with , and keep lying to get your second child in . Then secondary school ? Even more Years of lying

And people in church will know exactly what you are doing .

The systems shut though

I’m with _InfiniteCurve
Why?

_

If you are a Christian surely it doesn't matter which Christian school your child attends does it ? You have already said you don't agree with some of the things taught in a catholic faith yet you want to con your way to get into the school .
Look forward to reading your post moaning about your child having to practice the faith 🙄🙄🙄.

You need to check the admissions criteria op. DSs school wanted to see baptism before 6 mo the old and attendance at mass by all of us every week since he was born.

If school is not massively oversubscribed it might be more relaxed.

Don't underestimate just how Catholic it might be though. DSs school had prayers 5 times a day.

This is what's wrong with the world. Discusting!! Living by what you want rather than values and morals. Trying to out do others without any regard for the people who do practice and love their faith. Going to a Catholic school is not part time! Faith does not stop once they get into the school you want. Why would you send your DC somewhere to be taught something you don't believe in? I find this very selfish and morally wrong. Very confusing for your DC..

Not read the full thread but...

shrug I did it! Got DS baptised at 3 to get into a Catholic school. I never go to church and not Catholic. He still got in.

Don't care if it makes me a hypocrite. My son is at a great school that's all that matters

I know they do, Fink. But read your post back. I think you’ve just tried to argued that it’s right catholic children should be given priority because Catholic parishioners have donated to SVP and second collections otherwise it isn’t fair.

Firstly, SVP could give exactly the same money to support the poor families in Catholic schools with completely different criteria. The beliefs or lack of the families involved shouldn’t matter. Secondly, I’m not sure we should be donating to second collections on the basis of what we personally or as a parish might get back.

@nestisflown, not the main point, but there's very definitely biblical evidence for infant baptism (e.g. references to baptism of people 'and his/her household' in Acts and 1 Corinthians), plus very explicit references to it occurring as standard, traditional practice by the late second century, i.e. around 100 years after the end of the New Testament writings.

Yes, I suggest you look a little more deeply into what baptism means for Catholics. It is a very big deal, not just a symbol or words to affirm an already existing reality. It's the outpouring of grace into someone's life, the presence of God in the soul, salvation from sin, raising up to new life, what creates the new reality ... basically, it's something powerful to be treated with respect.

As regards your last point, that's the reason I said you probably wouldn't care. I understand that there is a tension when there are fewer good school places than children, so you're right that someone will always lose out and it's subjective as to who that should be.