Cultural appropriation

[Newbiemumsy66]

So this is a term which seems to be used a lot more these day (to my knowledge). I am a white woman and before I start, I am genuinely interested in the definition and especially hearing from those who feel their culture is appropriated.

My understanding is that it is deemed offensive when people (especially white people as we are/were generally an oppressive bunch) steal, wear, eat, cook elements from different cultures. I understand that it is often the case that these things are done disrespectfully, which of course is totally wrong. However, why isn’t it ok for a white woman to wear corn rows because she really likes the style for example? Surely doing something like that shows respect for another culture and shows that it’s a good thing to embrace our differences. Also why is it then not offensive for black people to straighten their hair such as their European counterparts natural hair? Surely everything is appropriated from everywhere in one way or another - it’s a positive step forward for inclusivity and to embrace one another’s differences in a good way. Surely by keeping these traditions within specific races only breeds further segregation?

Apologies if my post is tone deaf or not worded particularly sensitively, but it is just something that I feel I need educating on if my opinion comes from a place of privilege and is ill informed. I mean no offence, so please don’t reply with hate, if I’m wrong tell me why.

Personally, I dont hold alot of belief in cultural appropriation. However the issues are many.

It could be argued that it is CA when some not white, wants to appear white. But the power balance is different so it doesnt have the same impact.

Corn rows is an odd example too. The main issue around hair is that for years black women have been made to feel their hair isnt good enough. Isnt nice or attractive and generally looked down on. You can see how it must feel to them have someone like the Kardashians praised and called attractive when they adopt the same look.

However, having plaits in your hair isn't a something that originates only from countries where historically the population is black.

My fathers family can be traced back to the vikings. Who wore plaits and dreadlocks. My fathers family still very much keep alive their ancestral roots, and the men have had plaits. I grew up with many plaits in my hair. Egyptians wore plaits thousands of years ago. And before anyone says the Egypt is in Africa, I am aware of that. But, any student of ancient Egypt knows that the ancient egyptian race and culture was very different from the test of Africa.

So while I understand how it's a very emotional issue for people, I donr agree its CA.

I also think as the worl gets smaller and we travel and migrate more, that its inevitable that we all pick up bits and pieces of others cultures.

Take food. My ex husbands family is Cypriot and we had a Cypriot restaurant. 2 popped up close by, serving poor quality copies of our menu. The food wasnt great and not done in the way my echusbands family would have cooked it. You went in and found they had tried to recreate the Greek taverna feeling. But tbeowners were Italian and the other English. When simone is trying to take money, and therefore trade away from you, by poorly copying you culture and food. Its frustrating and can feel like a piss take. Non of my exhusband family would object to another Greek family serving good quality food, designing their restaurant around what they know and serving good quality food. Or non cypriots cooking Cypriot food at home or for a party.

Each case is quite individual.

I've never bought into the hairstyle issues...I've seen people say whites should not have dredlocks but that's crap because the Celts had those.

I don’t get the whole cultural appropriation thing either. As I understand it, when white people have worn cornrows, for example, they have been criticised for enjoying black culture without respecting black people, especially in the US, but I don’t really understand how you can make that assumption about an individual based on their choice of hairstyle?

As a non-white person myself, I do feel slightly uncomfortable when I see a white person dressing up in costumes from my parents’ cultures, but I can’t really explain why. I guess it is something to do with power and privilege as you say - there is something vaguely insulting about someone from a 1st world country trying on the culture of someone from a 3rd world country and getting praise/admiration for it, as if it is something new that they’ve just invented, especially because that would never happen the other way round - but I don’t really know. I don’t own those cultures so who am I to say that white people can’t borrow from them if they choose to?

Ultimately it’s all just hair/clothing/food/music, and imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, right?

The reason CA is a thing is because the hairstyles and fashions and customs of non whites are often mocked, deemed inappropriate or unprofessional (think natural hairstyles or cornrows in the work environment) etc in every day life (as a minority group) however the same are deemed fashionable, attractive or welcomed when introduced and used and most importantly CLAIMED by white people.
Appreciation of a cultural is one thing - but this is not what the issue is, the issue is where aspects of a culture is only deemed acceptable when other (white) people say it is.

Aside from this it is like picking and choosing what you wish to have without living with the shit that comes with it. Ok you want a big booty, full lips and cornrows because they are now deemed attractive in our society but you won’t take the systematic racism with it (there have been various studies about the prejudices against black womens appearances in society and the work place) because fundamentally you are still white!
The Kardashians are often used as prime examples because they have taken many many styles and beauty / physical features of the black community as their own - they are lauded and celebrated for introducing fashions and beauty and style that has existed for yonks - just in the black community and so it was never celebrated.

This is a very crude explanation, hopefully someone will enlighten you properly from a non white perspective. I suggest watching good documentaries and reading on the subject as it’s not something which is easily grasped or explained if you aren’t subjected to it I guess.

It’s not about borrowing from other cultures, it’s about taking on things from minority cultures and ethnicities. And the reason it’s inappropriate is that minority cultures have and still do struggled for respect of their cultural identity in a way that others haven’t. If members of a minority culture have been repressed, abused and derided for hundreds of years due to their race or religion, strived to maintain their cultural identity that entire time, and are proud of their cultural heritage in the face of a history of oppression then it’s inappropriate for others to dilute that cultural heritage by “borrowing” from it, particularly as it will have happened before in order to mock and sully that culture. (Eg blackface)

So it’s fine for a white British actor to play an American in a film, for example, but not to portray a Native American, for exactly that reason.

I think you put it really well @Grumpos

There's a really good Instagram account I follow which is from the US called The Conscious Kid, which is mainly about how to educate children about issues relating to race, and I've read a lot of interesting stuff there about CA. In the past few days there's been a lot of discussion about dressing up for Halloween and the line between appreciation/ appropriation here wrt to people dressing up as characters or historical figures from other cultures.

My fathers family can be traced back to the vikings. Who wore plaits and dreadlocks. My fathers family still very much keep alive their ancestral roots, and the men have had plaits

That is fascinating. How can they be so confident in this? Any more than the rest of us that is.

Just popping in to say this is a really civilised and interesting conversation about CA

I went to an international school with a large portion of the population Indian. Many of the parents would wear Indian clothes to Parties, even though they were many of them white.

Is the CA do you feel? It didn't bother any of us. I wonder if CA is more reserved as an issue for communities or parts of communities that have struggled with sort of class issues? These families I went to school with were all really really privileged, regardless of race.

That is fascinating. How can they be so confident in this? Any more than the rest of us that is.
The family have kept track themseleves.

They are from a coastal village that also kept record going back hundreds of years. They are very prominent family in the area though as well. I am not up on all the detail as I am not that close to them, family politics and all that. Basically my dads dad, turned out not be my dads bio father. Dads bio father is actually his dads brother. If you follow. Nana had an affair with her brother law. Dad always felt there was something amiss so distanced himself. They didnt like that he moved to the city, married a woman here and raised a family away from the coast. They are complicated lot . Though my dad heritage is important to him, he wanted the distance.

The rest family still observe lots of 'traditions'. Including, many, working at sea.

"because the Celts had those."

But when people do it, they're doing it to mimic black culture, not to mimic the celts.

@Grumpos put it wonderfully.

It was explained to me a few years ago, regarding the hair (I took out my years old dreads after this) that it wasn't that white people couldn't do what they wanted with their hair, but that when they copy the styles worn by bame people, it's insensitive to the fact that bame people can't just decide not to do that anymore and go back to styles which are seen by mainstream corporations as professional - because black people's hair has a different make up to caucasian hair and does not behave the same way, hence the type of styles worn by people with some ethnic hair. It was put to me more simply than I've worded it. And I'm not sure if I'm using the right terminology, I've heard that POC is no longer acceptable and it's BAME?

I miss my dreads but I choose to do something else now, which my caucasian hair does already.

But when people do it, they're doing it to mimic black culture, not to mimic the celts

That's an assumption.

Most people I know with dreadlocks have so because they insist it's easier to maintain.

And this the issue. I am dual heritage. Going back to my grandfather on my mothers side, my family is Indian. My mothers mother was from Northern Ireland and I was born there. So more than dual heritage.

To look at, I am white with pale skin, black hair and almost black eyes. I have been brought up with several different cultures. My accent is always commented on because it's not from anywhere recognisable having lived in several different countries as a child. People know I am not local to my area, but cant place the accent. On holiday talking to people, especially in the US I am presumed to be from various countries like Spain, Italy etc.

Whatever I wore you couldnt make an assumption about CA if you saw me in the street. Or on the way to an event for my grandfathers family. But you would be wrong.

This is why in modern times assumptions about CA are often in accurate.

But when people do it, they're doing it to mimic black culture, not to mimic the Celts

How do you know others' motivation. Clue: you don't.

I think the concept is difficult to understand in the UK context because we don't have the same history of the black community being oppressed. Yes there is racism but there isn't a cohesive black community with shared past of oppression and discrimination like in the US. Especially not in the north of the UK, where white working class people have traditionally been oppressed and until recently there wasn't much of a black community. People there have no knowledge about black people 's hair issues.
An example of CA might be say if people in nazi Germany started to celebrate an aspect of Jewish culture whilst not acknowledging its origins and continuing to persecute Jews. Bit extreme but you can see why it's offensive.
I'm not sure why CA doesn't seem to apply to food though.

"How do you know others' motivation. Clue: you don't."

Go and look at some of the white people on instagram who have dreadlocks. I guarantee that the vast majority will have copied other trends from the black community and a good many of them will have darkened their skin too.

@Chocolatelover45 that would be shocking considering Nazi Germany doesn't exist anymore.

But there are other ignorance in your post. Firstly that CA only applies to black communities. It doesnt.

What do you mean recently? I live nears Leeds and am almost 40. Theres been a good string black community here for as long as I can remember.

I think you also think that white people havent been subject to horrific acts and their cultures been attempted to be destroyed. I suggest you look up the history of Ireland.

It is different in the US. But I am very confused about your musings on the north of England.

"I'm not sure why CA doesn't seem to apply to food though."

I think it does to some extent, it really depends.

eg sushi. I have a Japanese friend who took homemade sushi rolls to school as a child in the US. She was teased mercilessly, ugh it's stinky, ugh it's gross, ugh it's slimy. Now sushi is seen as cool, sophisticated, posh. Basically because enough white people eat it for it to have been normalised for western, white people.

"I think you also think that white people havent been subject to horrific acts and their cultures been attempted to be destroyed. "

She literally said that white people had been oppressed in her post. And I'm pretty sure she's aware that nazi Germany is no longer a thing, you just misunderstood her phrasing.

Go and look at some of the white people on instagram who have dreadlocks. I guarantee that the vast majority will have copied other trends from the black community and a good many of them will have darkened their skin too.

And white people had dead locks before Instagram. There may be people who do it for those reasons. Especially if they are saying that on instagram. However, that doesnt mean you know everyone's motivation.

I'm not sure why CA doesn't seem to apply to food though.

Probably because most cultures enjoy sharing their food with those in and out of the community and enjoy sharing recipes.

"How do you know others' motivation. Clue: you don't."

Go and look at some of the white people on instagram who have dreadlocks. I guarantee that the vast majority will have copied other trends from the black community and a good many of them will have darkened their skin too

So what? That's them, not everyone.

"that doesnt mean you know everyone's motivation."

And I never said I did, either. But I think we can extrapolate about the majority based on trends.

You notice that middle class suburban white mums never have dreadlocks, even in the US where they loooove to celebrate their celtic heritage.

that doesn't mean you know everyone's motivation. echt

And I never said I did, either

Actually you did. And very clearly: when people do it, they're doing it to mimic black culture, not to mimic the Celts

"Many of the parents would wear Indian clothes to Parties, even though they were many of them white"

Wouldn't bother my folks at all. My mother often says how nice it is to see saris worn at parties, regardless of ethnic origin. She also bought an ex boyfriend of mine an Indian style suit. He had no connection to Indian bloodlines, or whatever we're supposed to call it, but he wore it to lots of functions, not with me in attendance as I get irritated by questions about my background. He wore it to a couple of English weddings. If anyone asked why, I'm guessing he'd have said "a friend bought it for me and I like it".

This was years ago when CA was not a thing. Has it mostly come up because of people like the Karcrashians? I gather they are plied with praise for just existing?

Yes she said whiyevwirking class people. Thats nots the same thing.

"when people do it, they're doing it to mimic black culture, not to mimic the Celts"

You understand what a generalisation is, I'm sure.

You don't have to get all "not all white people" on me.