Cultural appropriation

[Newbiemumsy66]

So this is a term which seems to be used a lot more these day (to my knowledge). I am a white woman and before I start, I am genuinely interested in the definition and especially hearing from those who feel their culture is appropriated.

My understanding is that it is deemed offensive when people (especially white people as we are/were generally an oppressive bunch) steal, wear, eat, cook elements from different cultures. I understand that it is often the case that these things are done disrespectfully, which of course is totally wrong. However, why isn’t it ok for a white woman to wear corn rows because she really likes the style for example? Surely doing something like that shows respect for another culture and shows that it’s a good thing to embrace our differences. Also why is it then not offensive for black people to straighten their hair such as their European counterparts natural hair? Surely everything is appropriated from everywhere in one way or another - it’s a positive step forward for inclusivity and to embrace one another’s differences in a good way. Surely by keeping these traditions within specific races only breeds further segregation?

Apologies if my post is tone deaf or not worded particularly sensitively, but it is just something that I feel I need educating on if my opinion comes from a place of privilege and is ill informed. I mean no offence, so please don’t reply with hate, if I’m wrong tell me why.

@Ponoka7 I'm struggling with the idea of a Black Ebenezer Scrooge on the Old Vic. They've cast Patison Joseph. He's a fantastic stage actor, but Upper Class Victorian Money lenders, were white. It's a lot of money for me to spend to be disappointed by a massive inconsistency.

Don't go and see Hamilton then

Oh wait...they're constantly sold out and won't miss your money

People genuinely think I'll be offended if they call me British

I know plenty of people who would be. I'm Scots, thank you, whatever that bloody wanked-over-blue passport says.

I think CA is such a difficult area, because on the finer points, someone may decide something is CA when someone else wouldn't.

One example is dressing up as a tradition 'red indian' as they used to be known. The typical look was the feathered headdress. That stereotypical outfit would be CA as it is taking a traditional item for Native Americans that has a lot of history, tradition and respect attached to it and using it as 'a funny headdress'. I think most people, if not all, would see that as CA.

A recent example that shows the bigger nuance is that there was an American girl who decided to wear what would be a traditional style of Chinese dress as her prom dress and people said it was CA. I still do not quite understand that one as it was not fun at the expense of Chinese people but for a love of the dress. Perhaps someone can enlighten.

Sometimes though things are seen as racist or CA but actually have no basis in it. For example, in Cornwall we have a festival called Darkie Day in which people blacken their faces and celebrate and Diane Abbott tried to get it banned for CA and racism in 'blackening up'. However, it actually has no basis in that and was nothing to do with darker skin on black people - it was a winter solstice festival and worker blackened their skin so they could not be identified by their bosses (although some still believe it was also linked to darker skin for miners). From the outside it could very much be thought of as CA but actually the origin is not related to black culture and history.

CA is just such a complex area that it is not surprising when people accidentally fall into CA.

How about "hygge" and the trend for anything "Scandi"?

30to50FeralHogs That's a really interesting perspective from your DB. I've worn glasses since childhood and can't see well enough to function without them. I wore contact lenses for a few years in my 20s, but had to stop. I've never minded others wearing glasses as a fashion statement - I'm always quite pleased if something usually seen as negative that I am 'stuck with' naturally becomes fashionable for a time. I wouldn't let others try my glasses on, though, because there's a risk of stretching them and they are a must I can't do without.

With cultures mixing and having mixed babies though, where do you draw the line?
Example, my own daughter is one quarter African, you can’t really tell, she has blue eyes and white skin but her hair is curly (although not quite Afro)
Would it be deemed unacceptable for her to explore her African heritage and take things from that culture? She is partly African but doesn’t look it, so where is the line drawn? Is there a percentage of a culture you have to be haha

I'm a double minority. I get annoyed when in some ad they use a stereotypical Mexican person/ setting to advertise "Mexican" food. Same with giving Jews a big nose.

Do I mind people wearing traditional Mexican gowns ? Not at all. I would however if someone was dressed as a "Jew" with a kippah and a tallit but that's only because they have religious significance.

@Tilltheendoftheline
You seem to have misunderstood my post - the OP was about white people getting traditional black hair styles so I was musing about why many British people don't really understand the problem. Therefore I referred to black people and gave a non black example. Of course this would never actually have happened as the nazis hated anything Jewish (also thanks for pointing out that it is in the past!)
The point I was trying to make is that CA is context specific and depends on the situation of the people concerned. It's not as simple as saying no white people should ever wear dreadlocks. In fact in most of the UK it is probably not an issue at all. Most black people in my area are first or second generation immigrants from Africa. It's a completely different scenario to the US with its generations of extreme oppression.
I'd be interested to hear from black British people as to how they feel about the issue.

Interesting thread esp about Indian clothes / wearing sari...
My husband is Indian, and we have lived there and now visit every 3 months...I wear a lot of Indian clothes when I am there...simple kurtis for everyday and fancy saris and salwar kameez for parties / weddings etc.
I do this to fit in with everyone else and because as a daughter in law it is expected by my in laws.
Everyone I have met there likes the fact I am interested in the culture and how I show it a lot of respect with how I dress.
I certainly wouldn't want to be CA though.
Indians in UK / USA have experienced negativity about wearing sari etc.
But if I told my Indian MIL and SIL that I'll only be wearing western clothes from now on because of CA I think they would be upset.

sallievp I would see this as the difference between dressing to fit in, and dressing to stand out. If you adopt the dress of the majority around you, the 'statement' you are making is that you respect their culture and want to fit in with them - you are not trying to draw attention to yourself or make a fashion statement.

Screaming.....yes that is what I want...to dress to fit in with the majority there and not stand out anymore than I do already.

You seem to have misunderstood my post - the OP was about white people getting traditional black hair styles so I was musing about why many British people don't really understand the problem. Therefore I referred to black people and gave a non black example. Of course this would never actually have happened as the nazis hated anything Jewish (also thanks for pointing out that it is in the past!)

This is entirely my fault. I was trying be lighthearted. That it would be a bigger shock value as it doesnt exist. It was early and forgot my

I do stand by what said in the rest if the posts though.

Though I do agree it should never be a case of 'X person shouldn't wear this because they look like they are from Y culture's

Because often that assumption is wrong.

It is a very complex issue. Even people from the same cultures have very different, nuanced views on it. Its very individual.

I'm not sure that if both a black and a white person turned up for a job interview with corn rows, that either would be seen as stereotypically "professional", I think a lot of people think corn rows look "ghetto" fullstop, but maybe I'm wrong and they really would view the white interviewee as smart and presentable with the same hair style as the black person they dismissed. Probably.

kiaran89
good point

@SleepyHiraeth but corn rows are only seen as “ghetto” and “unprofessional” because they are traditionally a way of styling black hair.

The only thing that pisses me off is seeing footage of North Africa especially Morocco with an Arabian nights themed music in background. It’s so friggin ignorant of the producers to not even put some actual Authentic music on! And referring to Things as maroc inspired and chucking dried fruit or cinnamon on it. I blame Jamie Oliver the CF. Harissa is NOT Moroccan and it really riles me no research has been done by “white man” to even label things properly. Gaaah. I’ve just walked round sainsburys so everything is annoying as I’m over due a holiday there. DH is Moroccan and I’m half Algerian so the errors niggle me a lot because it’s blatant disregard to authenticity and bollocks to “European palette” nonsense. Sorry for the rant. Otherwise couldn’t care less if anybody decided to wear our traditional dress or cook food. Cultures should be there’s to be shared and enjoyed unless used in a demeaning way. Hairstyles are hairstyles and I don’t see and issue With anybody wearing their hair how they like. Obv blackface is wrong on so many levels but nobody gives a damn about fake tan which in some peoples book is on the same level.

With cultures mixing and having mixed babies though, where do you draw the line?
Example, my own daughter is one quarter African, you can’t really tell, she has blue eyes and white skin but her hair is curly (although not quite Afro)
Would it be deemed unacceptable for her to explore her African heritage and take things from that culture? She is partly African but doesn’t look it, so where is the line drawn? Is there a percentage of a culture you have to be haha

Of course she can explore her culture. But it depends what you mean by that. There was a mixed woman on social media a few weeks ago who wore dark makeup to appear black and a lot of people were outraged by that. I don't care if she's 1/2 Black that's unacceptable. Real black women are put down for their complexion. She's profiting off another person's skin colour, taking revenue away from other black influencers. That's not inspiration, that's impersonation.

If your daughter wants to embrace black culture through music, food, clothes, language or hair that's fine, as long as you promote it on the people who made it in the first place. If you wear cornrows, you can't go around calling black women ghetto. That is where the appropriation is.

@Passthecherrycoke

Thank you. And it's not just a fashion statement, Afro hair is very dig to European hair. This is a protective style which stops it getting matted or damaged. And to be honest it seems like every hair style black women wear is unprofessional- weaves, wigs, cornrows, natural Afro, locs. Nothing is ever good enough.

Just an example, Meghan Markles mum had people calling her ghetto at the wedding. Her hair was neat, come on. Some people will always complain and degrade other cultures.

If you wear cornrows, you can't go around calling black women ghetto. That is where the appropriation is.

This sums up my issue with the term. Anything that's problematic about cultural appropriation just boils down to racism in my view.

It's racist to call black women ghetto for their hairstyle. Full stop. Your own hairstyle is irrelevant to that discussion.

@Passthecherrycoke EXACTLY.

but corn rows are only seen as “ghetto” and “unprofessional” because they are traditionally a way of styling black hair.

🗣 Say it a little louder for the people at the back

@MolyHolyGuacamole I'm not keen on musicals. I've booked to see Gerald Dickens perform A Christmas Carol. But i normally see two versions, somewhere in the UK.

Now I'm over 50 i consider myself able to be eccentric. It's my excuse to piss off somewhere for a few days. I combine the local Christmas market and Church wherever i go, as well.

Mind you, our local vintage cinema is showing the Muppet version. So that's a possibility. Yes, I know Bob Cratchet wasn't a frog, but can somehow overlook that

Exactly @ThatFlamingCandle. Cornrows are neat, and similar to European plaiting when you think about it. They are only considered “ghetto” because of the Racist association of black men (in particular) and crime.

can you name 10 mainstream rom coms where the lead was played by an actor of an ethnic minority?

Bend It Like Beckham

Crazy Rich Asians

Girls Trip

Any Bollywood rom com?

Guess Who’s Coming to Dinner? (Not comedy)

Maid in Manhattan (too white as Jennifer Lopez Hispanic/European?)

Coming to America

How Stella Got Her Groove Back

Think Like a Man

Boomerang

Moonlight (not comedy, but homosexual black romance, but also not mainstream, still won Best Picture)

Mahogany (not comedy, but romance)

The Bodyguard (not comedy, but romance)

These were the films that came to mind, not sure they fulfil the challenge. Most were hits, many focussed on the subject of interracial/intercultural relationships, a few were from the 90s, one from the 60s, one from the 70s. Clearly it’s still not a mainstream thing but there seem to be more now than ever.

As with all things it comes to power and money.

I don’t know much about Bollywood, but all the Bollywood films I’ve seen advertised don’t have any stars who are from a visible ethnic minority, although India does have quite large minority groups.

@ShagMeRiggins Bollywood doesn't count as mainstream. And thank you for pointing out more than 10, spread over decades (although Girls Trip is Comedy and not RomCom, and Crazy Rich Asians I feel doesn't count as it was made BY Asians to counter this issue of under-representation, same with Always Be My Maybe that's currently on Netflix).

It's unfortunately nowhere NEAR enough, when compared to the amount of movies released featuring white actors in leading roles.