Cultural appropriation

[Newbiemumsy66]

So this is a term which seems to be used a lot more these day (to my knowledge). I am a white woman and before I start, I am genuinely interested in the definition and especially hearing from those who feel their culture is appropriated.

My understanding is that it is deemed offensive when people (especially white people as we are/were generally an oppressive bunch) steal, wear, eat, cook elements from different cultures. I understand that it is often the case that these things are done disrespectfully, which of course is totally wrong. However, why isn’t it ok for a white woman to wear corn rows because she really likes the style for example? Surely doing something like that shows respect for another culture and shows that it’s a good thing to embrace our differences. Also why is it then not offensive for black people to straighten their hair such as their European counterparts natural hair? Surely everything is appropriated from everywhere in one way or another - it’s a positive step forward for inclusivity and to embrace one another’s differences in a good way. Surely by keeping these traditions within specific races only breeds further segregation?

Apologies if my post is tone deaf or not worded particularly sensitively, but it is just something that I feel I need educating on if my opinion comes from a place of privilege and is ill informed. I mean no offence, so please don’t reply with hate, if I’m wrong tell me why.

Waffleswaffles not always.

And also back your point about Scandinavian household items. It became ok because a company from Scandinavia started selling them. You dont see many protests about CA against people going and buying furniture.

People who had items before then, possibly had Scandinavian roots.

That said I dont know anyone who is incredibly offended but someone having a buddha in their house either. Even the colleague I had who also performed hindu priest duties in his spare time.

So again its personal.

@QualCheckBot you have actually given me inspiration. I have studied ancient egypt at length. Including being able to read hieroglyphs. Found it fascinating.

But have been thinking of doing more studying just for the enjoyment of it. I am definitely going to look into norse mytholgy.

waffleswaffles Well, Thor IS pronounced Tor in Scandinavian countries.....

It is now. But the pagan deities of the Norse religion were worshipped a long, long time ago, before Christianity. That's when Old Norse was spoken.

Heres a nice handsome man to explain to you all the detail you could possibly wish to know about the pronunciation of "Thor". Of course, he's American, so despite being a professor, I guess in your world he isn't allowed to comment on its pronunciation either...

I feel like I'm stuck in a sketch of Father Ted, where FT patiently tries to explain the differences between big and little, and near and far away...

**
Please do not tell me that I cannot comment on the pronunciation of a name in a language which I have studied because I am the wrong nationality. You are being really offensive.

You find that offensive? QualCheckBot

In my first post I was really only trying to point out that CA can also apply to white people from other countries/cultures. It's generally not cconsidered OK for white people to comment on black/ Asian culture, but when it's another white culture it's OK. There'a a double standard in that.

I think the original poster who posted about the pronounciation of Thor/Tor was talking about how it's currently pronounced.
The Sami people live in Norway, Sweden and Finland. Countries which I thought that British people considered being Scandinavian (?) I am perfectly aware that the Sami culture is separate from Swedish, Danish and Finnish culture and languages. My point was about the Sami culture being culturally appropriated and how this seems to be deemed acceptable.

It's generally not cconsidered OK for white people to comment on black/ Asian culture, but when it's another white culture it's OK. There'a a double standard in that.

Where have you got this?

Yes, Waffles I do find it offensive. I am mixed race, and as some other posters have pointed out, its not always entirely obvious that we don't fit neatly into one or other category of race, but a lot of assumptions are made.

Are you English? Or American? Because the English language actually retained the "th" sound from Old Norse while Danish, Swedish and Norwegian didn't. The "th" sound disappeared around the 13th-14th centuries but interestingly English retained it for example in the definite article and personal pronouns, probably because when Old Norse died out of common usage, certain words were frozen in time and sound. Another good example would be the "sh" sound in modern Scandinavians languages whereas English again mixes it in loanwords from Old Norse, so we have "skirt" and "shirt" which used to mean the same thing, or we have "kirk" in Scottish and Northumbrian English but "shirka" (how it sounds, not how its spelled) in modern Swedish (the fact that modern Swedish allows a dual pronunciation of "sh" or "wh" for the same letter combination is really interesting).

Sami people are an example of a different ethnic grouping living in a country dominated by another ethnic group. Sami peoples have different dna results, culture and history and are thought to have occupied most of Scandinavia and only moved north at the time of the Great Migrations of the Germanic tribes 400-500AD which saw the current Scandinvians move to Scandinavia and Anglo-Saxons to England.

Its perfectly acceptable to pronounce "Thor" with a "Th" sound because Thor and the other Norse gods were worshipped outwith Scandinavia and placenames demonstrate that. And it is an Old Norse name so it is correctly pronounced. Most Scandinavians know this.

Tiltheendoftheline @QualCheckBot you have actually given me inspiration. I have studied ancient egypt at length. Including being able to read hieroglyphs. Found it fascinating.

Glad to hear it. I will witter on about Old Norse and the Vikings if given the chance, so apologies for doing so on this thread. But I hope it illustrates how glib assumptions about someone culturally appropriating something may be dangerous.

Do watch the Jackson Crawford videos on the Norse. He explains it all much more charismatically and vividly than I do. I have met him though...

@QualCheckBot I could learn more from dads family. But complicated pasts have ended with me not having contact with my dad or his family, unfortunately.

But I do still do some of things he taught me growing. Think it would make me feel closer to that side of me.

QualCheckBot I am Swedish.

I find some of your comments quite patronising and unnecessary.

I know what the Sami are.

The word for church is modern Swedish is kyrka and it's not pronounced shirka.

Finland is not actually in Scandinavia, but in the English language Finland is part of Scandinavia.

i do not appreciate it when people talk about Scandinavia or Lapland as if they are countries.

I don't know about "most Scandinavians" but I can assure you that in modern Swedish at least Tor is definitely not pronounced Thor and it wouldn't occur to anyone as far as I know (I don't know all Swedes) to pronounce it like that.

Anyway, my original point was that if we are going to accept that CA is "a thing" then it needs to apply to all cultures, not just a few. My culture is often seen as a bit of a joke and that's not nice. Dor example: I feel the cold as much as you do. I am allowed to say that I feel cold even though I am Swedish. I do not enjoy jokes about having casual sex in saunas or that I sound
Iike the Swedish chef from the Muppet show, or that I must buy all my furniture in IKEA.

The word for church is modern Swedish is kyrka and it's not pronounced shirka.

That's really strange waffles because I did the Swedish language school in Uppsala for 2 summers, 6 months in total of Swedish, and I remember my surprise over being told to pronounce kyrka shirka. Shall I tell them this is wrong? What could be the explanation?

i do not appreciate it when people talk about Scandinavia or Lapland as if they are countries.

I don't blame you. I quite agree. I was a bit puzzled when you referred to Scandinavians, but perhaps that is something else I have got wrong as well.

Finland is not actually in Scandinavia, but in the English language Finland is part of Scandinavia.

That doesn't make any sense. Finland is not part of Scandinavia, and its not part of the English language to say so. I think most reasonably well educated British people would know that.

There seems to be a lot of drip feed going on here to justify your claim that only Scandinavians could tell other Scandinavians how to pronounce words. I can assure you that for countries where Old Norse was spoken which did not undergo the sound shift that modern Swedish did, Thor is how it is said. Or "Thurrr". You are not going to get native English speakers to refer to Thor as Tor. I am sure you didn't intend to be racist, but its indirectly racist to say that only natives may have an opinion on something. It depends not on race or skin colour or ethnic background but on the fluency of the speaker. But Sweden is certainly not the only country where Thor is known, and while I know that in Swedish you don't make the "th" sound you make in English, I think its perfectly reasonable for those whose usage of the name comes from Old Norn to refer to Thor as Thor and not Tor.

As for the Swedish treatment of the Sami - lets not go there. Horrible things they did such as sterilising Sami women and preventing them speaking their own language, horrible threats to their territory from gas exploration, but I'm sure you have an explanation for that as well as for saying that only Scandinavians could have an opinion on how to pronounce the word "Thor".

QualCheckBot Why are you being sarcastic and unpleasant? I am Swedish. I live in the UK. I am telling you a bit about what it's like when people appropriate my culture and also what it's like to be Swedish in this country, but you don't seem interested in that bit.

It's a bit silly of you to suggest that you would have to tell your language school in Uppsala that they have taught you incorrectly. They probably haven't. I guess that as you are learning Swedish as a adult you can't pronounce the Y sound like a native Swedish speaker. Nothing wrong with that. Y is not pronounced IR (like in BIRD). I can't spell how it's pronounced, sorry. I don't think the sound exists in English.

I am Swedish, but you seem to want to deny my experiences of being Swedish. I speak fluent Swedish.

As for this comment: As for the Swedish treatment of the Sami - lets not go there. Horrible things they did such as sterilising Sami women and preventing them speaking their own language, horrible threats to their territory from gas exploration, but I'm sure you have an explanation for that as well as for saying that only Scandinavians could have an opinion on how to pronounce the word "Thor". that's really offensive. I am well aware of how the Sami have been/are still treated in Sweden. Why do you think I would have an "explanation" for that? The whole point of bringing up the Sami was to discuss CA of their culture (mainly thinking of clothing/weaving patterns).

Your attitude is a bit strange.

This whole Thor-discussion started when Mumminmum posted : I usually don't get offended by CA, but as a Scandinavian, it is a bit hard to keep a straight face reg. the way Scandinavian culture is depicted in Hollywood. Like "Midsommer" where new rituals are invented. "The Danish Girl" and "Vikings" where suddenly Denmark has mountains. "Vikings" claiming that Thor the God of War is a blacksmith. "Hammering on his anvil". It is a Warhammer! In avengers Heimdal is black and Sif, who is known as "the golden haired" because her hair is actually made of gold, is played by an actress with black hair and Sif is No longer married to Thor. (Whose name is pronounced "Tor". Like the start of the name "Thomas".)

And QualCheckBot corrected her, teaching her more about her own cultural back ground, which is quite patronising. I pointed out that this in itself is a good example of CA of a kind that isn't normally recognised as CA (or perhaps it isn't CA, but something similar).

And then the discussion turned into something else. Just thought I'd clarify this for anyone who is still reading!

Its not CA. For a start Thos is part of many cultures. Including mine. Though I have never been to any part of scandinavia or Finland.

Neither is the Avengers since, Thor isn't a god but an Alien from space. Or was Bruce Almighty CA, as well?

If someone says 'this word that is used by many cultures is and always has been pronounced this' and they are incorrect, it's not CA to say 'actually that's not strictly true due to'. Especially from someone who has studied it.

How is that taking something from someone? I studied theology at catholic college. I know fat more about the bible and its history, than most Catholics. I dint consider myself catholic. That doesnt mean I cant enter a converstation in it.

I think we should be allowed to upset the Swedes or the Nigerians as much as anyone else wthin the limits of the law and basic politeness. The bigger issue which thankfully the Swedes are at the forefront of often is free speech.

Hi Waffles I'm not being unpleasant but I did point out that telling someone they could not comment on a historical point because they were a different race from someone else was offensive and racist. You still don't get it, do you? It isn't about the colour of your skin. I was really offended and hurt by the remark.

Unless you are suggesting that actually studying another language and culture is cultural appropriation in itself?

I studied Old Norse. I stated that Thor is an Old Norse god. He was worshipped in England, not just what are now the Scandinavian countries. He is part of many cultures, not just the Swedish culture, and appears in many different languages as a result.

I don't care if you are Swedish, Nigerian or Swahili. In fact, I have heard how special you think you are because you are Swedish more than enough times. I think we all get it that you are Swedish. And yes, people are allowed to mention what the Swedes did the Sami, whether you like it or not.

Yes, I do agree that there is CA from Swedish culture too, if you think CA is a thing. Personally I think that unless its legislated for, cultural appropriation is best not enforced too heavily, because there are those who would set themselves as the arbiters of what is and is not acceptable, and that will probably lead to inequality. Its also difficult where people are mixed race and are mistaken for being one race when they are not.

I am a bit shocked and dismayed at your lack of knowledge of Old Norse pronunciations *Waffles", as it is part of the history of the language you still speak. I think you have an agenda going on, which is to present yourself as being more important than other people.