Cultural appropriation

[Newbiemumsy66]

So this is a term which seems to be used a lot more these day (to my knowledge). I am a white woman and before I start, I am genuinely interested in the definition and especially hearing from those who feel their culture is appropriated.

My understanding is that it is deemed offensive when people (especially white people as we are/were generally an oppressive bunch) steal, wear, eat, cook elements from different cultures. I understand that it is often the case that these things are done disrespectfully, which of course is totally wrong. However, why isn’t it ok for a white woman to wear corn rows because she really likes the style for example? Surely doing something like that shows respect for another culture and shows that it’s a good thing to embrace our differences. Also why is it then not offensive for black people to straighten their hair such as their European counterparts natural hair? Surely everything is appropriated from everywhere in one way or another - it’s a positive step forward for inclusivity and to embrace one another’s differences in a good way. Surely by keeping these traditions within specific races only breeds further segregation?

Apologies if my post is tone deaf or not worded particularly sensitively, but it is just something that I feel I need educating on if my opinion comes from a place of privilege and is ill informed. I mean no offence, so please don’t reply with hate, if I’m wrong tell me why.

In addition, cultural appropriation and cultural assimilation are viewed as inevitable, neither good nor bad. It’s humanites that made these observed cultural shifts into bad things to be avoided.

@TrueNorthStrongAndFree
Living in Canada, cultural appropriation is an important topic and rightly so. Cherry picking aspects of another culture for reasons of fashion is not acceptable - especially when the culture being borrowed from is traditionally an oppressed group. For instance, here the First Nations (native) People’s have specific clothing, designs, ceremonies etc tied to their specific Nation -and these cultural elements have very important traditional, cultural and religious meanings. Anyone from outside that culture cannot understand the full meaning of these traditions - and when these clothes or designs are used just for their esthetics rather than recognizing the meaning behind the image, it IS offensive.

Very similar to New Zealand. One particular example is 'ta moko', traditional Maori tattoos, which became very 'fashionable'. These have great mana and meaning and are a privilege and a taonga (treasure) in Maori culture. Having these designs ripped off and appropriated is deeply offensive and angering to many Maori.

I'm actually really heartened to hear you say that about Canada, because the people I talked to in Canada really didn't seem to have much of a clue when it came to the history or issues of the First Nations people, which saddened me a little.

I also agree with you about Teacher 22. Sorry, but what a lot of drivel. An 'attack on Western culture'? For having the temerity to finally have a voice and a say about the ripping off of their culture?!

“There was much wailing and gnashing of teeth about American culture swamping various European cultures. In that case it was considered bad because our own culture was being over-run. How come it's not the same when people adopt cornrows?”

This is nothing like cultural appropriation though

So it’s fine for a white British actor to play an American in a film, for example, but not to portray a Native American, for exactly that reason.

I 100% agree that it's not ok for a white actor to play a character of a different skin tone. But why is it ok for a British actor to play an Irish character? The Irish suffered every bit as badly from British oppression as any other race or nationality, including numerous attempts across centuries of near genocide. (And even just this weekend the British government went on a massive campaign of threatening Ireland across the EU, so it's not like this utter contempt and belittlement of Ireland and the Irish people from the British establishment is even close to over.)

Re the Irish actors I guess it depends, in a film related to the social problems caused by British oppression I’d agree with you, that’s it’s insensitive (but not cultural appropriation since acting isn’t unique to Irish culture) . For a random film, no I don’t think it’s an issue.

It’s not ok for a white actor to play a black part because, not least, they will be taking work away from black actors who often have little work opportunity in the first place

It depends if it's appropriate, I live in a city with a high Indian population and have been to Indian weddings, it's considered the correct thing to do to wear a sari as a white woman, in fact friends are always desperate to lend you them (because they always buy something new so have lots of them) I would actually prefer to wear ordinary wedding clothes because it's more comfortable for me but that's not the done thing. Henna hands are also all the rage here across all communities. Cultural sensitivity is needed, but clothes and hairstyles are fine

Any actor should be free to play any role they’re offered. It’s the whole point of their professional training - to ACT a part that isn’t natural to them. Otherwise, where does it end - can only soldiers play army officers, or Maoris play New Zealanders?
Admittedly this would have prevented the abomination of Dick van Dyke’s “Cockney” accent in Mary Poppins, but it’s unworkable!

@Juells
“We tend to homogenise, taking things from nearby cultures, everything flattening out so we become less separate.”

Yes. Exactly that is usually what happens when two cultures come into contact and then co-exist. Over time, they homogenize and grow together. But eventually, when a culture gets too big, it starts to splinter and you have tribalism occurring.

What is going on to day, is tribalism. Tribalism is when subgroups within a larger society start to assert different identities and subcultures. They also take ownership of that culture and decide membership (who can and cannot engage in their cultural practices).

Jesus some of the white privilege on this thread is staggering 🤦‍♀️.

I don’t think a sari is CA. For a start it’s not a symbol or oppression, although some Indian people have of course been oppressed. People just think Saris look nice, but often can’t tie them so wait to wear them to events like Indian weddings so they can ask for help putting them on. They’re also really expensive

Using the logic of people who cry ‘cultural appropriation’ you end up with everything being unacceptable, as babdoc says. There is no line. It’s all part of humanity culturally evolving by merging good ideas and has been happening since forever. Best not to play the game of defining CA - it’s impossible to find a definition more than two people agree about

@Passthecherrycoke
It’s not ok for a white actor to play a black part

But it is ok for a black actor to play a white part. I find the double standard troubling myself. Either we stick to our tribes and only act within our own race/culture or anyone can act any part.

Well, no, only Maori playing New Zealanders wouldn't be a thing, because 'New Zealander' is a nationality, Maori is a race with a very special history and place in New Zealand culture - the tangata whenua or people of the land.

They'd most probably get a bit upset about a white fulla playing a Maori though. Although you never can tell, they might just piss themselves laughing.

Sorry, hit post too soon. 'New Zealanders' are made up of many races - British, European or British heritage, otherwise known as Pakeha, Indian, Japanese, Chinese, etc, etc. . .

Do you @DoctorAllcome? I think firstly, it has to be the case that all parts apart from specifically white ones should be open to black actors. Otherwise they wouldn’t get any jobs. Very few parts are written for black actors

However, very few parts are actually written for white actors- they are just assumed to be white aren’t they? No one is suggesting a skin head, or hitler, be played by a black actor

Using the logic of people who cry ‘cultural appropriation’ you end up with everything being unacceptable, as babdoc says. There is no line. It’s all part of humanity culturally evolving by merging good ideas and has been happening since forever. Best not to play the game of defining CA - it’s impossible to find a definition more than two people agree about

Well I can tell you 'knowledge' is also hard to define in philosophy with many different interpretations of what it is. Does that mean knowledge doesn't exist now?

It's hard to define but there are many examples of what it is, like blackfishing. A white lesson takes something another race is mocked for, dark skin, and is praised for it. This isn't about hairstyles, you can wear whatever you want. It's about the original race or culture being marginalised and others being uplifted for mimicking them.

It's blatantly obvious you're not a person of colour so I do t expect you to understand.

But it is ok for a black actor to play a white part. I find the double standard troubling myself. Either we stick to our tribes and only act within our own race/culture or anyone can act any part.

White actors have NO TROUBLE getting work. Black actors (and other ethnic minority actors) on the other hand, do. This is WHY roles about actual ethnic minority people are reserved for actors of that ethnicity. Black people are only needed for a movie that's about slavery or based on a true story about black people. The only actor who seems to be able to get a wider variety of parts is Idris Elba, just the ONE person who can do this, mind (ok maybe a few more than one, but not more than a handful).

White people are not limited in the same way. They can play any generic role in a thriller, drama or rom com, can you name 10 mainstream rom coms where the lead was played by an actor of an ethnic minority?

don’t think a sari is CA. For a start it’s not a symbol or oppression, although some Indian people have of course been oppressed. People just think Saris look nice, but often can’t tie them so wait to wear them to events like Indian weddings so they can ask for help putting them on. They’re also really expensive

Here, it's all about CONTEXT. Wearing a Sari at an wedding to pay respect, not appropriation.

Wearing it in your every day life as a fashion, when Indian people have been made made to feel inferior for their 'funny style of clothing'...appropriation.

Yes I agree. I didnt think taking the Mocking of saris is really a thing, but apologies if it’s just something I haven’t seen.

@MolyHolyGuacamole,
Thank you!
Another example would be “Bantu knots”, when black woman have them on, they are seen as mokery. When Marc Jacobs does it in a fashion show, it’s praised
Saara Baartam from South Africa- the poor woman was sold to a circus, used for sex and mocked for having a massive bum. Eventually died of an std.
The Kardashian’s are now praised for having big bum.
Growing up, I used to be laughted at for having a big bum. Now it’s the sandard for so many girls. Taking pills, doing ridiculous exercises and the taking ridiculous pictures on Instagram to proudly show off.
A lot of these Kardashian like people want our bodies, our lips, and even our hair, without understanding our struggles. Black women have ben and still are disrespected and the least protected group in society.
If you are not a black women, you will never know what it’s like.

Living in Canada, cultural appropriation is an important topic and rightly so.

See I find this odd given their stance on the Trans issue.

Re the Irish actors I guess it depends, in a film related to the social problems caused by British oppression I’d agree with you, that’s it’s insensitive (but not cultural appropriation since acting isn’t unique to Irish culture) . For a random film, no I don’t think it’s an issue.

Acting isnt unique to any culture. Please can you explain further. Irish people have been very oppressed. So why is it ok for a british actor to play an irish part in film not related to the social problems.

I have to say I find social problems quite an odd term for the treatment of the irish and what's happened and happening there

DH and I were talking about this the other day actually. A sports show was on after (I think) a rugby world cup match in Japan. The show was filmed in a studio in London (?) But it was dressed in a 'classic' Japanese style and all the presenters (4 white men) were in suits but no shoes on. It was really odd and just seemed wrong. The camera really focused on the studio fit out and lots of full length shots on the presenters as if to highlight "look at us being Japanese!". I don't recall that many full length shots where you see their feet in other shows...

I've noticed East Asian men being cast as the romantic lead in stuff in the last year or so...maybe because of the success of Crazy rich Asians? (DH is Asian and I have a DS so I always notice)
I wear my house dresses my PILs give me (but only inside as they are nighty/pj type things)

Apparently lots of people complained about the Dolmio adverts but I thought they were sweet...and the DM sounds like my DM. Spaghetti hoops and ravioli in a tin are abominations though

I think the CA thing has gone too far, and is another modern example of people wanting an excuse to be offended. I should also point out that it is always aimed at white people.
What is "white privilege"? Does that apply to white people who are homeless or struggling to feed their family?
This is one of the most ridiculous examples.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/22/heres-the-main-issue-behind-the-jamie-oliver-jerk-rice-row-and-its-not-cultural-appropriation

Then we have this.

www.kentonline.co.uk/canterbury/news/japanese-themed-bar-comes-under-fire-for-cultural-appropriation-188520/

Is it CA when I invite some friends around for a curry which I have made, or if I make Persian food (my wife is from Iran)?
Is it CA if a black African dresses in a suit and tie, you know, wearing the clothes of the oppressor?

I think given our history as a nation, if someone says to me 'this makes me feel uncomfortable' and it's a hairstyle or using a word or something I can equally avoid doing, as a white person, I'll just not do it. Its not difficult.