Cultural appropriation

[Newbiemumsy66]

So this is a term which seems to be used a lot more these day (to my knowledge). I am a white woman and before I start, I am genuinely interested in the definition and especially hearing from those who feel their culture is appropriated.

My understanding is that it is deemed offensive when people (especially white people as we are/were generally an oppressive bunch) steal, wear, eat, cook elements from different cultures. I understand that it is often the case that these things are done disrespectfully, which of course is totally wrong. However, why isn’t it ok for a white woman to wear corn rows because she really likes the style for example? Surely doing something like that shows respect for another culture and shows that it’s a good thing to embrace our differences. Also why is it then not offensive for black people to straighten their hair such as their European counterparts natural hair? Surely everything is appropriated from everywhere in one way or another - it’s a positive step forward for inclusivity and to embrace one another’s differences in a good way. Surely by keeping these traditions within specific races only breeds further segregation?

Apologies if my post is tone deaf or not worded particularly sensitively, but it is just something that I feel I need educating on if my opinion comes from a place of privilege and is ill informed. I mean no offence, so please don’t reply with hate, if I’m wrong tell me why.

‘Sorry, hit post too soon. 'New Zealanders' are made up of many races - British, European or British heritage, otherwise known as Pakeha, Indian, Japanese, Chinese, etc, etc. . .’

Most of these are nationalities. They are not races.

@Passthecherrycoke

*I think firstly, it has to be the case that all parts apart from specifically white ones should be open to black actors. Otherwise they wouldn’t get any jobs. Very few parts are written for black actors

However, very few parts are actually written for white actors*

Well, yes I agree anyone can play a fictional character. My concern is mostly about historical people that were white who are being played by black actors. Barbarians Rising, boardcast on the History channel and purporting to be the history of Hannibal’s attack on Rome with a black actor playing the part of Hannibal is just plain inaccurate. Hannibal’s ethnicity is clearly documented as a descendent of a noble Phoenician family in Carthage. You see Carthage was a Semitic colony in N. Africa and its rulers & aristocrats were not indigenous N. Africans (which are even a different race from subsaharan Africans which we commonly refer to as black people and is the race of the actor playing Hannibal).

It is like casting a Greek person to play Shaka Zulu.

By social problems I meant a myriad of subjects that can be attributed to British rule in Ireland. From the troubles to poverty, famine etc.

Personally I don’t believe that a British/ American/ German actor playing the part of an Irish person is CA. The same could be said of any part in which the actors nationality is different to that of the character ie any part that involves putting on an accent. I don’t see how portraying nationality is related to cultural appropriation, no. That’s as much as I can explain, I’m sure you’ll disagree. That’s fine.

This is a really interesting thread.

On the subject of big bums having become fashionable - can someone explain the cultural appropriation aspects of this? Unless you are rich enough to afford surgery, surely the size of your bum relative to the rest of you is outside your control. When I was younger, big bums weren't in fashion and women of all races would complain if they felt their bum was unfashionably big. Are we now saying that, dependent on your ethnicity, if you have a large bum, it would be wrong to take advantage of the change in fashion by dressing to compliment it?

Babdoc
"Any actor should be free to play any role they’re offered."

I agree but Doctor Who was ruined for me when they cast a Woman.

I'm struggling with the idea of a Black Ebenezer Scrooge on the Old Vic. They've cast Patison Joseph. He's a fantastic stage actor, but Upper Class Victorian Money lenders, were white. It's a lot of money for me to spend to be disappointed by a massive inconsistency.

@andyoldlabour To answer your question 'What is White Privilege?', I recommend the book 'White Fragility' by Robin DiAngelo. It explores the typical range of responses offered by white people when it is suggested that something they have done is racist.

Most of these are nationalities. They are not races

Just thinking of this in the shower. I see your point, I don't think I'd say 'nationalities', perhaps 'ethnicities' is the more precise term?

Yes doctor allcombe I would agree with you that it’s a difficult line when it comes to actors playing real historical people. The difficulty comes again, because there is of course little interest in the West in making films/ Tv about BAME historical events, again pushing BAME actors out of work. But I do take your point.

However I don’t think, for example that the pirates of the Caribbean would get away with a white cast if it had started today, and rightly so

Also Jewish pobaka but no one has insisted on Jewish actors previously?

You can make a small bum bigger through exercise. That’s why there are suddenly loads of skinny girls with massive arses.

No. British is a nationality.

Because a big bottom was seen as a negative, and ugly, when on black women in the west. But somehow it’s fashionable when white women finally decide to dress their huge arses?

A similar example is when Kaitlyn Jenner won a woman of the year award, well covered after some publicity hungry magazine awarded it to them. So a man is now a better woman than actual woman? That’s what it felt like

I don’t see how portraying nationality is related to cultural appropriation, no.

Ones culture is mostly determined by their nationality, not their race.
That’s why the common usage of “cultural appropriation” is a mis-use of the original intent and definition of cultural appropriation. Today, we accuse people of CA based on visual cues as to their ethnicity (not nationality). The common usage of CA also lumps ethnicities together and averrs that each has its “own” culture when it really doesn’t. There is no such thing as a homogenous black culture, or white culture, or Asian culture or Native American culture.

I’ve not really come across this in terms of New Zealand before and is probably a totally different context.

But it happens a lot with American culture - they want to use British, Irish, French etc as code words for white, despite British people frequently not being white.

This is a really interesting thread. Thank you very much to the posters who have taken the time to explain and offer examples of cultural appropriation, which must feel particularly exhausting and tiresome in the face of constant defensiveness and challenging.

Another good resource is the podcast 'Yo, Is This Racist?'. It's hosted by an African American woman and a Chinese American man. It is a comedy podcast so there's a lot of joking around, however plenty of the things discussed on this thread come up.

"Wearing it in your every day life as a fashion, when Indian people have been made made to feel inferior for their 'funny style of clothing'...appropriation"

My mum would have no issue with that either. In fact now she's getting rid of saris, I fully expect my fashionista white friends to have them. If skinny jeans can be your fashion one day, a sari the next...what's wrong with that? You could certainly argue that some of my friends have more of a connection to India than I do as well.

@Passthecherrycoke
“Because a big bottom was seen as a negative, and ugly, when on black women in the west.”

Hmmm actually a big bottom was a negative and ugly on ALL women not just black women. To my mind, the big bottom thing is more about fashion and beauty trends because big bottoms have come in and out of fashion in a repetitive cycle. Which means it’s not culture but fashion. Culture is more enduring.

Personally I don’t believe that a British/ American/ German actor playing the part of an Irish person is CA. The same could be said of any part in which the actors nationality is different to that of the character ie any part that involves putting on an accent. I don’t see how portraying nationality is related to cultural appropriation, no. That’s as much as I can explain, I’m sure you’ll disagree. That’s fine.

The difference is where one nationality or race have been oppressed.

Irish people have been oppressed, a huge amount by the british.

Passthecherrycoke So what you're saying is that it's because the trend for big bottoms was initiated by white celebrities? I think I understand a bit better now, thank you.

"they want to use British, Irish, French etc as code words for white, despite British people frequently not being white."

This upsets me but obviously it's not CA. However, so called issues like CA are muddling the issue. People genuinely think I'll be offended if they call me British.

@AutumnRose1 you are very right and that's why I think we can not apply CA on an individual level.

Because we have no idea what connections people have to other culture. Or how they came across things. For example if you mum have a white friend a Sari, it's a gift therefore not CA.

It's a very complex ans emotive issue.

@Passthecherrycoke
“The difficulty comes again, because there is of course little interest in the West in making films/ Tv about BAME historical events, again pushing BAME actors out of work”

I agree with this and it’s sad because I am very interested in history worldwide. We tend to just reboot and redo the same stories over and over. I’d love to see Shaka Zulu, the Indian Ramayana, Kon Tiki, etc.

‘People genuinely think I'll be offended if they call me British.‘

It offends me when people who were not born in Britain or who do not live here are described as British.

theFlamingCandle paraphrased its like someone copying your homework and getting an A when you only got a D for the same thing
Thank you, this is a great metaphor, I was a swot at school and this resonated with me more than any other explanation. Its opened my eyes a bit more.

I know it’s not cultural, but my DBro has worn glasses his whole life, since toddlerhood, a really strong prescription.

Other kids gave him nicknames about them and, while I don’t think he’d say he was bullied as such, he was definitely teased about them.

When people who don’t need glasses wear them as a fashion statement he’s always really annoyed, or if someone asks if they can try his on to see how strong they are, he always says no.

It riles him that someone wears blank glasses with no prescription because they like how they look, or because there’s a current trend for ‘nerd glasses’, but then they can just take them off when they get fed up. Whereas it’s his reality every waking moment of the day, that he has to wear them. He can’t just take them off (tried contacts and they didn’t work for him), if he wants to see, he has to wear them.

To a non-glasses-wearer this might seem a bit petty but I totally get where he’s coming from and I imagine it’s the same place as those who are pissed off with CA. Someone trying on his reality to have a laugh about it or to make a fashion statement is insulting.