Cultural appropriation

[Newbiemumsy66]

So this is a term which seems to be used a lot more these day (to my knowledge). I am a white woman and before I start, I am genuinely interested in the definition and especially hearing from those who feel their culture is appropriated.

My understanding is that it is deemed offensive when people (especially white people as we are/were generally an oppressive bunch) steal, wear, eat, cook elements from different cultures. I understand that it is often the case that these things are done disrespectfully, which of course is totally wrong. However, why isn’t it ok for a white woman to wear corn rows because she really likes the style for example? Surely doing something like that shows respect for another culture and shows that it’s a good thing to embrace our differences. Also why is it then not offensive for black people to straighten their hair such as their European counterparts natural hair? Surely everything is appropriated from everywhere in one way or another - it’s a positive step forward for inclusivity and to embrace one another’s differences in a good way. Surely by keeping these traditions within specific races only breeds further segregation?

Apologies if my post is tone deaf or not worded particularly sensitively, but it is just something that I feel I need educating on if my opinion comes from a place of privilege and is ill informed. I mean no offence, so please don’t reply with hate, if I’m wrong tell me why.

I’m also really hoping bend it like Beckham wasn’t a rom com as wasn’t it a school girl and her football coach?

Although now you mention it what’s happened to parminder Nagra? The film that helped make Keira knightly yet she doesn’t seem to be in much anymore?

I don’t disagree with the follow up comments, was only making a stab at the movie challenge. It was an interesting exercise for me, as a massive film fan, to come up with the list without research.

hat it’s a good thing to embrace our differences. Also why is it then not offensive for black people to straighten their hair such as their European counterparts natural hair?

I get really annoyed with this question. It makes me wonder if the person just completely dismisses or ignores the history and treatment of Black people during and after slavery especially in the US. Black people HAD to straighten their hair, wear wigs, look more European just to SURVIVE. They had to do these things so they could get jobs to support their families. There were even laws where they had to cover their hair (The Tignon Laws) because it made them attractive to white men.

www.bitchmedia.org/article/the-history-of-louisiana-tignon-laws

To look “respectable” you had to “look” white.

Also, the assumption that Black women now straighten their hair to look white is offensive because you wouldn’t say the same to a white person who has curly hair and decided to straighten it. Also, we straighten our hair because we like to play around with different styles (like everyone else) and because it can make our hair more manageable especially if you have time constraints like work and children and don’t have half a day to do your hair.

@ShagMeRiggins most of those films were targeted towards audiences that were not mainstream. For example, Stella, Coming to America, Road Trip, had all black casts and you cannot say they share a platform with most generic rom com movies that come out every year.

People who are from BME backgrounds can play your average loved up character in most romantic films, but the majority of roles go to white actors.

Parminder Nagra is in loads of things! Most recently, I saw her in Elementary.

but there's all the massive US TV stuff - ER, The Blacklist, Agents of Shield. I'm aware Elementary isn't popular over here, but the others are pretty big aren't they?

anyway....she's still having a great career and that's just a tiny fraction of what she does, have a look at her IMDB.

Oh that’s my fault, I haven’t heard of any of those apart from ER and now you mention it I do remember her in that

but corn rows are only seen as “ghetto” and “unprofessional” because they are traditionally a way of styling black hair.

I know, I'm not denying that, just the comments that a white person with corn rows would be welcomed and seen as professional the same as those who don't wear them.

There are always a lot more people on these threads denying racism than I expect. Its depressing.

It's not just about innocently following a trend from another culture. As people have explained it's about either, 1. borrowing a trend that has a sacred or special meaning in one culture and using it as a fashion accessory, which is insensitive and disrespectful. Or 2. borrowing a trend from another culture that people from that other culture get discriminated against for, by your culture.

Eg if you have a religious symbol tattooed on you as part of your culture whereby you have to play some part in the community and have achieved something to get, and then others outside the culture get the exact same thing, how would this not feel like a pisstake? It would be like someone dressing up as a priest because the robes are so pretty. Like it or not some things have special meanings to people and are going to offend if copied by people on the outside who dont understand that special meaning.

I have a Buddhist friend who was annoyed that the image of buddah was being used everywhere for example for a while where she lived there was a brand of beer where the bottle was in the shape of a buddah because it was fashionable. She felt it was disrespectful to her religion and said what uproar there would be if there were beer bottles in the shape of Jesus on the cross, or Mohammed.

I think people saying 'its just a hairstyle' are missing the point that the culture that mostly use this hairstyle are routinely discriminated against by their culture, in every single walk of life. This is not an opinion it's a fact (eg people with non classic white names on CV are less likely to be called for an interview). Imagine being oppressed your whole life and then one day one of your oppressors who got the promotion you should have got, comes into work looking like you, and everyone tells them how great they look, when you suspect the reason you didn't get their job is because you look that way too, but it's different apparnelty because you're black. The white person copying the hairstyle may not be racist at all as an individual, but they are from the culture that does discriminate, and ignoring that is insensitive.

@KiaraN83 your daughter has every right to be proud of her heritage. No one will feel annoyed if she were to, for example, dress up in traditional attire or wear her hair in any way. However, your daughter will benefit from privilege that her darker skinned family cannot access, so she should be sensitive to this.

Disclaimer: I don't mean to offend anyone, please educate my ignorant white ass.

Regarding fancy dress costumes... I understand that a white person dressing as "a black person" would be offensive because you'd be parodying and stereotyping a historically opposed group, similar to the Minstrel show.., but why is it offensive to dress as a specific black person that you admire? Why is it acceptable for a white girl to listen to Beyoncé's music, learn her dance routines, wear her face on a T-shirt, but then when she dresses up as her for a party it's suddenly "blackface" and racist?

Also, why is it acceptable for men to parody and stereotype women for entertainment (eg Ru Paul's Drag Race)? Isn't this basically "womanface" (and actually more offensive than my Beyoncé example above) because women are also a historically oppressed group?

I understand what you're saying about the Kardashian's. What I do not understand is her husband and children are black. Wouldn't she be appreciating her husband's culture and her children by doing different things from their culture. Especially if Kanye wanted to share his culture with her. I don't know much about Kim's culture. My great grandma was 100% native American I am the only blond blue eyes in my family so if I want to do something to represent her culture which is my familys how will anyone know if they are just accusing me of CA. And what if I was adopted by a different culture. Who's to say I'm appropriating if I was raised in that culture. What I'm saying is so many are accusing others of doing something when they have no idea where they came from or who they are. I understand both points of view and that maybe we should ask questions before we decide what someone else is thinking.

@Passthecherrycoke Although now you mention it what’s happened to parminder Nagra? The film that helped make Keira knightly yet she doesn’t seem to be in much anymore? ah yes very good point!

all the Bollywood films I’ve seen advertised don’t have any stars who are from a visible ethnic minority

To Western eyes, all Bollywood films have a visible ethnic minority. As this thread is about cultural appropriation from a Western (power) point of view it seemed appropriate to look through a different lens. Bollywood is mainstream in India.

Bollywood doesn't count as mainstream.

Please define mainstream, then. See above, as I understand your point, but mainstream to one isn’t necessarily mainstream to another. Again, we need to consider money and power.

Girls Trip is Comedy and not RomCom, and Crazy Rich Asians I feel doesn't count as it was made BY Asians

Girls Trip is Comedy with a strong romance element, as was Bridesmaids. Neither is classic rom-com but both could be placed in that category.

As for Crazy Rich Asians, why do you discount it because it’s made by Asians? It was a massive mainstream hit across a wide cultural and racial demographic, and absolutely a Rom Com.

Of course there aren’t enough films financed by, made by, starring people, being watched by people who are not white.

Film is only a small part of the debate, gets more attention than it deserves because cinematic images are extremely powerful, and we ought to be more engaged with what we can do as individuals. I can do fuck all to change Hollywood.

As an observation, people here have very different ideas about what constitutes mainstream, culture, race, nationality, history, oppression, etc. Which is good as it’s part of the debate.

The Kardashian’s have been appropriating black culture for a long long time, well before the men and children came along.

I don’t see why a white girl cant dress as Beyoncé. She obviously can’t do blackface though

@MrsA2015 half Algerian here too. Get unecessarily annoyed when I see cold cous cous with raisins in it...retch.

I've found this thread really interesting. As someone of mixed (Algerian-Irish) heritage, with the Algerian contingency being mixed race too, but who presents as white British English, I feel like a fraud everywhere. In Algeria I'm very western European, in Ireland I'm English and here...who knows?!

If I were white with dreads and found out a whole group of oppressed people took offence to them, I'd just get rid. Surely if it's 'just a hairstyle' it's not worth upsetting people over?!

@ShagMeRiggins

Bollywood is not mainstream to a UK audience, who make up the majority of this forum. Don't nitpick.

Girls trip IS NOT a RomCom, neither is bridesmaids, next.

I discounted Crazy Rich Asians because the ONLY reason those actors were cast was because it was a film maid by Asian people who wanted to see more representation of people from their own ethnic background, had that film been simply about the generic ‘simple girls meets rich guy’, it would have been cast with white actors.

The Lion King original and the remake are a classic example of my last point. The original was cast with largely white actors, despite it being set in Africa and having African themes throughout. These are cartoons, and could have been portrayed by anyone, yet there wasn’t much room for BAME actors. In Aladdin, both Aladdin and Jasmine were modelled off of famous white faces (Tom Cruise and Jennifer Connely), despite them being of Middle Eastern origin. Disney started getting it better with Mulan and Pocahontas, and has tried to rectify the situation with the Lion King remake.

As minority I think the term is abused and mis used a lot of times. But there is a phenomena that an activity or habit that is associated with a minority group and is often is considered inferior or exotic suddenly becomes cool because it is adopted by whites. For minorities adopting dominant cultural practices is not CA because it is expected that we should “fit” in.

So people get upset because a lot of times for minorities there’s a social cost in being different whereas the members of dominant group will seem interesting if they adopt some minority practices.

I agree that is over used it should only be as a form of general comment and individuals should not be policed.

Why is it acceptable for a white girl to listen to Beyoncé's music, learn her dance routines, wear her face on a T-shirt, but then when she dresses up as her for a party it's suddenly "blackface" and racist?

It’s only blackface if she darkens her skin because that would be highly unnecessary. You can dress as many black people without colouring your skin. If people weren’t still using blackface to mock and ridicule black people it probably wouldn’t be an issue, but unfortunately it still happens therefore it is still offensive.

Meech37 My great grandma was 100% native American I am the only blond blue eyes in my family so if I want to do something to represent her culture which is my familys how will anyone know if they are just accusing me of CA. And what if I was adopted by a different culture. Who's to say I'm appropriating if I was raised in that culture. What I'm saying is so many are accusing others of doing something when they have no idea where they came from or who they are. I understand both points of view and that maybe we should ask questions before we decide what someone else is thinking.

Theres so much ignorance around. My father is Chinese. Like a lot of Hapa people, I can pass for European, except I don't quite look "right". I've lost count of the times I'm been told I have slanty eyes. I've even been told that I must have had "cheekbone fillers" and its "made my eyes look slanty like that". Yet obviously wingtips to make eyes go up at the sides is very popular. I don't see anyone calling that CA. Or wearing kimonos as a fashion item. Or dressing like a Harajuku girl, when Gwen Stefani was warbling about them.

I've actually been told on here, very aggressively, that I can't understand racism because my skin is the wrong colour - because I'm not black or part black. The whole of western culture is based around living in cities or semi urban areas and benefitting from mass farming techniques. Who is to say what is beneficial integration and what is cultural appropriation? What about when its used as an excuse to hold people (particularly young Asian women) back and avoid integration?

Its not only blacks who were discriminated against in the US. Irish were routinely discrimination against. There is a phrase "black Irish" which was used to refer to Irish who simply didn't fit the blond, blue eyed ideal.

The issue is a lot more complex than cornrows and fashion.

Is yoga considered a cultural appropriation?

I really wouldn't count food. That's a totally different thing in my opinion.

*Doctor all come,

Hmmm actually a big bottom was a negative and ugly on ALL women not just black women. To my mind, the big bottom thing is more about fashion and beauty trends because big bottoms have come in and out of fashion in a repetitive cycle. Which means it’s not culture but fashion. Culture is more enduring.

No whereas western culture and fashion ideals may have thought a big bum was ugly and it has come into and out of fashion over the last few years.

Some other cultures have always celebrated a big bum, a bigger frame and curves. So no a big bum is not ugly on all woman. Check your privilege.

"Does Kanye West even respect his culture, didn't he say slavery sounded like a choice?"

I don't know anything about Kanye West. Well, apart from Golddigger.

if he said that about slavery, that's clearly a big plate of crazy he ate for lunch. But.....I don't know what his culture is. You can't know someone's culture by their skin tone.

I'm a Londoner through and through. That's pretty much it. People allocate a different culture to me because of my skin colour and if they see mum in a sari. But....um...no. I am not familiar with anything else. North of Watford or Sarf of the river is pretty much foreign parts.

So if I was being judged by someone to be not respecting my culture, what would that mean? Who decides what my culture is? Surely I do?

And yes it is a little bigger than hairstyles and bums. But it starts there when a black person is denigrated for wearing their traditional styles but a white person is praised.

It continues when a part that should have gone to a east Asian actor in a film series (like the recent ones based on old mangas and anime) have gone to white actresses. White washing. The lack of east Asian representation on TV and in film is worrying especially when aspects of so many East Asian cultures are copied time and again by the western media.

But a lot of people have made really eloquent posts on the subject but people are still coming on this thread showing such a level of white privilege and ignorance.

@IAmALazyArse

“Is yoga considered a cultural appropriation?”

Can I ask why you ask that? I don’t understand where that idea has even come from