Cultural appropriation

[Newbiemumsy66]

So this is a term which seems to be used a lot more these day (to my knowledge). I am a white woman and before I start, I am genuinely interested in the definition and especially hearing from those who feel their culture is appropriated.

My understanding is that it is deemed offensive when people (especially white people as we are/were generally an oppressive bunch) steal, wear, eat, cook elements from different cultures. I understand that it is often the case that these things are done disrespectfully, which of course is totally wrong. However, why isn’t it ok for a white woman to wear corn rows because she really likes the style for example? Surely doing something like that shows respect for another culture and shows that it’s a good thing to embrace our differences. Also why is it then not offensive for black people to straighten their hair such as their European counterparts natural hair? Surely everything is appropriated from everywhere in one way or another - it’s a positive step forward for inclusivity and to embrace one another’s differences in a good way. Surely by keeping these traditions within specific races only breeds further segregation?

Apologies if my post is tone deaf or not worded particularly sensitively, but it is just something that I feel I need educating on if my opinion comes from a place of privilege and is ill informed. I mean no offence, so please don’t reply with hate, if I’m wrong tell me why.

I'm Irish. We've had over 800 years of oppression. I don't feel offended whrn people from other cultures celebrate St Patricks Day.

And I never said I did, either. But I think we can extrapolate about the majority based on trends.

You did. And why would you am extrapolate the majority because theres a people on instragam that are. Plenty of people arent on it, plenty of people are not trying to be black or even make hashtag out of their hair. So not sure how you say it's the majority.

Plus my point was that just because one group of people is doing something for a certain motivation, doesnt mean that individual is.

Just like if you saw me, in a sari. Some people may like to pretend they are Indian (no idea if this is a thing), but I am not. My grandfather is and dress accordingly when attending an event for his family.

You notice that middle class suburban white mums never have dreadlocks, even in the US where they loooove to celebrate their celtic heritage.

I would say you are wrong. But what does a middle class mother have to do with anything?

Sorry my spelling is atrocious. Off to get more coffee

till you're putting words in my mouth so honestly there's no discussion to be had really because I don't have the energy to sit here and re explain stuff that I haven't even said.

You don't have to get all "not all white people" on me

I haven't. I'm going all you don't know what individuals think. On you. Sort of thing.

You understand what a generalisation is, I'm sure

Yeah, that would be you ascribing motives for actions to groups based on guesswork.

As someone of mixed race, I can tell you the reason it's seen as offensive is this:

White people are already the upheld standard in western society. Silky hair and fair skin is seen as beautiful.

Now black people have their own unique culture... and it seems like white people are swooping it and taking that too. And a white woman with cornrows is called beautiful but on black people it's still labelled thuggish and ghetto.

I really like seeing people embracing culture, like trying foreign food, making friend s of other races and even clothes, music

What I don't like is when one race can use another's culture and be praised and the pioneers are marginalised for the exact same thing.

What I don't like is when one race can use another's culture and be praised and the pioneers are marginalised for the exact same thing

A point so well-made, and such pisser that it is still the case.

For example BLACKFISHING which you may have seen on the news a while ago. People with fair skin using makeup to portray themselves as black.

I definitely find this disgraceful to be honest because:
• Black women are too often seen as ugly but a white woman can just wear makeup impersonating another race and gets clout and likes
• these black fishers take away ad revenue money from actual black women, who once again are pushed to the side.

It's difficult to explain. I think some people do just cry appropriation at everything but sometimes it's true. It's like someone copying your homework and getting an A and you get a D for the exact same thing.

you're putting words in my mouth so honestly there's no discussion to be had really because I don't have the energy to sit here and re explain stuff that I haven't even said.

I dont believe I am.

I am discussing the difficulties with CA that while I can understand people feeling their culture is being appropriated, that when we look at individuals it's very difficult to know whether it is CA or not.

I havent said you said anything you did not say.

The CA stuff is quite interesting. Especially when trans is brought into it. Male (the traditional oppressor of women) appropriating and wanted to be seen and treated as a woman. Which has then led onto wether 'trans race's can be a thing.

Will 'trans race' persons get lots of rights where CA wont be allowed to be discussed at all.

FWIW, I dont know and dont believe you can be trans race but it's an interesting subject.

CA is complex and I agree it’s more obviously and routinely felt in the Us then here, although I think it does happen here. As a PP said, a perfect example is classic features of black women (large lips, large bottom) which black women have historically been ridiculed for but white women are celebrated for- and specifically-
Make money from. Kardashian’s being an obvious example

On thing that does feature pretty heavily is the what aboutery as seen here (well what about the Celts with dreadlocks) I think CA is very nuanced and it’s hard to find the language for all the whataboutery thrown at you. But I don’t think it should be about that. It’s about who is suffering CA, not who isn’t

That is fascinating. How can they be so confident in this? Any more than the rest of us that is.

Off the point of the thread but DP can trace his family line back to beyond 1066.

The issue of so called cultural appropriation is another aspect of an attack on western society which has been going on from the early twentieth century. It is part of a many fronted war on:-
The family
Religion
Social mores
Law and institutions
Traditional gender
Western culture.

Essentially, it is an ever evolving attack on western social norms which aims to keep the population on the back foot so they are always in the wrong. If they assimilate the acceptability of one ‘out group’ then they are immediately criticised for their views of another.

The ‘useful idiots’ who want to be acceptable good guys will never be so as the point is to keep them striving for an unattainable virtuousness. While they are trying to fit in they take their eyes off the ball concerning what is being done to them

As my old dad used to say, ‘Take plenty of no notice.’

I think its also about removing things from a culture without being aware of their cultural significance.

Im from a certain culture and one of our religious symbols became popular in the 90's for people outside of that religion (namely teenage girls). For my family who had lived in a country as minority religion, that symbol was used to identify people of a similar belief to you, and who you might be able to share faith etc and they had previously been discriminated against due to showing their religion (from denied jobs to physical stuff).

Its then frankly odd when all of a sudden teenage girls are wearing it with no real understanding its a religious symbol or what it may have meant to people and deeming it now "cool" despite it existing for hundreds of years. It wasnt really highly offensive just incredibly odd. Just sort of like if you lived where christianity was persecuted, and had lots of underground prayer etc then later saw people wearing big crosses, or dressed as nuns despite not being christian.

It can result in some horrendous racial stereotypes coming out /creating bug caricatures of the culture (looking at you, local british owned thai restaurant with boderline racist pictures and odd collection of "thai" items !)

If you think of something like day of the dead, obviously its a celebration. My american cousin threw a party . They live near the border, wouldnt hire a mexican, might have voted trump to build a wall etc throwing parties to celebrate a cultural event of a culture they actively discriminated against. They arent likely to be aware of its significance within the culture and the spiritual aspects to it eg the whole ancestry part. They just like the look of sugar skulls and neon.

Its where you cherry pick one part of a culture and deem it "cool". My cousin isnt looking to support mexico, or aknowledge that in the areas near him people are dying crossing the border, that his own mexican cleaner isnt able to celebrate it due to being at work and being seperated from her family. He just likes one part of the culture thats colourful and is ignoring the rest

I spose if you are going for Celtic dreadlocks you could stripe your face and body with woad so it's clear which culture you are following

I wouldn't even call dreadlocks cultural appropriation because white peoples with locs get as much shit as black people. But cornrows/big lips/etc is different because whites and blacks are treated differently.

I can see why it is an issue. With corn rows, for example, when people of colour are still having their children sent home from school for “extreme” hairstyles, wearing the very hairstyle they adopted to try to “tame” their natural hair growth in order to blunt the racist stereotypes created by their oppressors... then they see a white person walking down the road with corn rows speaking a bastardised patois.

I can see why it grates. People can do what they want, but I understand why they don’t like it.

Living in Canada, cultural appropriation is an important topic and rightly so. Cherry picking aspects of another culture for reasons of fashion is not acceptable - especially when the culture being borrowed from is traditionally an oppressed group. For instance, here the First Nations (native) People’s have specific clothing, designs, ceremonies etc tied to their specific Nation -and these cultural elements have very important traditional, cultural and religious meanings. Anyone from outside that culture cannot understand the full meaning of these traditions - and when these clothes or designs are used just for their esthetics rather than recognizing the meaning behind the image, it IS offensive.

And Teacher22 - I think you need to think about your white privilege.....

Hi, black woman here. OP it's a topic that takes time and I have to get ready for work, so I'm going to just use a couple examples.

Your example with the corn rows is classic, as it's a hairstyle (along with weaves and braids) often used to put black people down, describe them as 'ghetto' and 'unprofessional', but white people who wear them aren't labelled in the same way.

Don't believe me? A simple google search of 'professional' vs 'unprofessional' hairstyles should make it clear.

Black women are constantly made to feel like we need to 'europeanise' our hair in order to be deemed 'acceptable'.

Well I know someone (born abroad, one Scottish parent) with a very large ‘Scottish’ tattoo - the visual and wording was wrong and more like a Disney interpretation of ‘och aye the noo’. Now, she was attempting to give a nod to her background and she loved it. It wasn’t offensive.

What is offensive is ‘gender appropriation’.

Another example: food. You as a white person cooking/eating/buying Indian food? Not appropriation.

You as a white person opening a quirky restaurant in a trendy area that specialises in Indian food? Appropriation. And I haven't made this example up. This happened in the area where I'm originally from, which has a strong history of slavery and colonisation, and a white person was praised and got a write-up for being so 'cool' in opening this restaurant.

Meanwhile when I went to school, Indian children were made fun of if their parents ran a restaurant as it was considered low class, and were teased and told things like they smelled like curry, mocked for their religion and 'four-armed gods', always made to feel they weren't good enough.

So yes, to be a white person who has never experienced this kind of hatred and oppression and then to profit off of another culture, THAT is appropriation.

Cultural appropriation is a technical term appropriated from Anthropology. Basically, in a scenario where two cultures engage and one culture is dominant over the other, this results in aspects of the two cultures being shared and adopted by each other. The aspects the dominant culture adopt are called “cultural appropriation.” The aspects the subordinate culture adopt are called “cultural assimilation.”

The terms are meant to be applied to major events and their impacts on the cultures...like invasions or colonisation. And in Anthropology it is recognized that two or more cultures can engage and coexist without there being a dominant- subordinate dynamic going on.

Unfortunately, humanities academics appropriated these anthropological terms and are mis-using them to apply to the vagaries of fashion trends within western culture.

Also read this article where Dior got 'inspiration' from the fashion of a small Romanian community, making hundreds of thousands off of their designs while the community they stole from got not credit nor any proceeds. Modern day colonialism.

https://www.boredpanda.com/dior-copy-traditional-romanian-design-clothes/?utmsource=google&utmmmedium=organic&utmcampaign=organic

Also looking for help understanding

Say the Canada thing. Suppose I buy a dress with a design that was inspire s by the designs from your native population, but (being European) I don’t recognise that, am I at fault? Once explained, what should I do?

How much does motivation affect this? If a child went to school with corn rows to support another child’s who was getting bullied, would they be at fault? ( side question, I thought corn rows were that really neat braiding. Are people really told off at school for that hairstyle? )

I guess I can’t help feel that approbation is more likely to integrate society

Although white people financially benefitting from things that others have had used against them is disgusting. And I guess that might not help integration either, if people don’t see where it has come from or change their attitudes in general.

Seems like it's not possible to take anything from another culture without being criticised. There was much wailing and gnashing of teeth about American culture swamping various European cultures. In that case it was considered bad because our own culture was being over-run. How come it's not the same when people adopt cornrows? Cultures swap fashions, attitudes, music, art, it's how human society works, surely? We tend to homogenise, taking things from nearby cultures, everything flattening out so we become less separate.