To keep on punishing my 5 year old for being silly at school

[Sunlight82]

I am an ex primary school teacher, now university in lecturer. I thought I would have this while parenting lark sewn up but I have come to the realisation that I don’t and am really floundering at the moment.

I have a 7 year old DD who is that perfect child at school - good at everything, never been in any trouble, chosen for everything, very mature etc. So I have never faced this situation before.

I also have a 5 year old DS. He is an absolutely lovely little boy in many ways. He is funny, has a great sense of humour, clever, thirsty for knowledge, kind and knows so much about the world. However, he is constantly getting into trouble at school for his silliness.

He lost so many sanctions in Reception for things like running down corridors, spinning in Hymn practice, gambolling in the middle of assembly, playing rough with the boys at playtime. Nothing malicious, all just over the top and silly.

At home he is loving, funny, gets in well with his sister. They never fight and he can play for hours with his lego without a murmur. He can sit down when I ask to practice handwriting etc. And does it beautifully.

We had big talks about it over the summer. Practiced keeping calm and not getting over excited and how he had to try really hard in Year 1.

Well things are exactly the same if not worse. We have now been summoned to see the class teacher tomorrow as he lost 10 sanctions last week. Some seem quite harsh (picking his nose) and others justified (accidentally kicking a girl up the bottom whilst pretending to be a bucking bronco).

We have been punishing him at home for losing sanction but at this point he has lost everything - no TV, no toys, dinner on his own each night, straight to bed at 6, no treats, nothing. He has nothing left to lose. We never shout and in desperation we shouted at him over the weekend. He cried himself to sleep curled up in a tiny ball. When he woke up he came into me and said ‘I’m so sorry mummy. I try to be good for you but my body just does things and I can’t stop.’

He went to school today trying so hard to be good and ended up losing another sanction. He was devastated when I picked him up and kept apologising. I really don’t know what to do. I feel so sad for him. He is not ready for the formality of school. He is still so lively and silly and immature in many ways. I have cried buckets for days as I feel like I am breaking his little spirit and I hate myself for it. But equally I don’t want him marked as the naughty boy at school who has a difficult life there and never gets chosen for anything.

In desperation I have considered home schooling him and asked him if he would prefer that tonight. But he said he loves school and would miss playing with his friends.

His dad and I have no idea what we should be doing in this situation. Please help.

The idea of 4 and 5 year olds being put on a warning for fidgeting or moving at the wrong time is literally insane

They are designed by nature to move and play . What a cruel system we have

Completely unique in Europe that we expect formal behaviour from children of this age. My family in another European country think we are brutal.

They should be learning by playing at this age with almost total freedom of movement and choice .. preferably outside for much of it

@waterrat actually, we are not completely unique in europe. most countries expect this by 5, they just don’t call it school... (yes, i got first hand experience in 5 european countries- we moved around a lot)

Ah God no, you're taking entirely the wrong approach. You need to make home a nice, safe place for him, not an extension of school (punishing him for things that happened there). Poor little boy.

Stop wanting the perfect child and comparing him to his sister.

Like ever other person replying to this thread I was horrified reading your op. It's the closest I've ever come to crying by reading something on Mumsnet!

You need to take the advice given by others, stop punishing, apologise etc. But also you need to reeducate yourself on parenting and discipline, because if this is the point you have reached today, I think it is safe to assume you haven't been getting it right with your son for some time.

Read Sarah ockwell Smith "gentle discipline book" for starters, and maybe her "gentle parenting book" for some background. You need to rethink your whole parenting ethos.

Your poor little boy!

Bloody hell, why are you punishing him! For the love of god, stop it! He is already losing sanctions, whatever the fuck they are, and you are piling on further punishment! He is still very young, my DD is almost 6, in primary 2, and can still be silly at school. Isn't that what kids do? I fo think that finding a more relaxed school would be better for him, and for you.

Maybe you'd find it helpful to read some parenting books and blogs?
I recommend www.ahaparenting.com and "How to talk so little kids will listen" by Joanna Faber & Julie King.

I have never said this on MN before, but I’m so glad you weren’t my mum (and my parents could be really hard on me).

More kindly, I wonder if it would be worth you doing some soul searching to think about why this is eliciting this reaction from you? It sounds like you have a need for him to be really well behaved in school (quite a public place where all our kids’ imperfections are on display for all the world to see!). And that need is clouding your judgement when it comes to evaluating the school’s behaviour (too harsh, but you have realised that and have gone along with it), evaluating your son’s behaviour (often pretty normal), and your own behaviour (also too harsh). Where does that come from? What need is it serving in you? Are there times in your life when you’ve felt like this before?

I think if you were to reflect on your own stuff, you’d be able to let go of a lot of this and and find a more positive solution for your son.

It's the being a bucking bronco I find funny, not the kicking.

For goodness sakes, the OP has updated three times since the original post. I wish people would read her updates before pulling in.

She agrees, she is upset with herself, things will change.

*piling

I'm wondering if your little boy is bored at school. Sometimes exceptionally bright children play up because they are not being stretched.

Have the school considered this I wonder or having labelled him as naughty have they lost interest?

I'd explore this possibility but also start looking at other schools as well.

I find the notion of punishing kids at home for what they do at school bizarre, unless it was really serious behaviour (and they are at secondary school). They are punished at school.

Do you ask the teachers to punish your child for their misbehaviour at home (a lot of which will be learned behaviour from the school environment)?

Oh OP, please don’t listen to the cries of ‘child abuse’ and ‘saddest thing I have ever read on MN’ those people clearly don’t have a very high bar, and some are down right nasty and wrong. Parenting is one big learning curve. It is so easy to get caught up when constantly we are told - sanction behaviour, why aren’t you supporting the school, why is he being allowed to get away with xyz, discipline! But sometimes and it seems in this case you haven’t actually sat and thought about what he is doing and what reaction it deserves. Spinning in hymn practice and running down corridors isn’t a sign of ADHD either, it’s normal 5 yo behaviour. It seems that you have been so keen to be seen as getting on top of the ‘behaviour’ and supporting the school that you haven’t stopped to think about what actually matters and what he actually needs.
We aren’t all perfect. What’s important is that you can see where you have gone wrong, and as you say, you are going to change it. He’s 5. Give him some time, and speak to the school about their ridiculous sanctions. Yes, a teacher should say ‘no running down the corridor!’ and he gets a verbal ‘telling off’ but that’s all. The school sounds far too heavy handed.
Good luck, OP.

@Amanduh those people clearly don’t have a very high bar,

No, making a child eat his food on his own, away from his family is horrible. The OP has acknowledged that it wasn't the right thing to do but please don't make out as though that is in any way an acceptable punishment for a five year old (for an anything year old). I appreciate you're trying to make the OP feel better and that's great but those listed punishments are, indeed, incredibly sad.

OP as someone else said upthread, I think your angst probably comes from having been a teacher. I was a head for many years (and have six boys so believe me, I feel your pain!!) but because of my job I felt immense pressure to be able to manage their behaviour at all times. If course there were times when they were monkeys (still are, even the adult ones!) and I am sure I felt ten times worse about it than I would have done if I had not been a teacher.

Relax and give him a lovely time at home to be himself. I think a family game of bucking bronco could be a pre-dinner pursuit! (No kicks up bottoms though 😂😬)

I’d second what some others have said about positive reinforcement, it really does work, try and ignore the behaviour you don’t want and praise all the behaviour you do want.
I’d also stop the punishment at home.

Hopefully your school can be asked to try the positive approach with him as well.
It’s so sad that small children are punished for so many little things.

Op this made my heart break for your son. I can see you've realised you were so incredibly wrong to punish the way you did. However you and your DH need help from experts to stop yourself over reacting again.

Your poor son thinks he's a bad person right now. I'm not going to sugarcoat it Op - you've a lot of work to do to rebuild his self esteem.

And please do change schools if you can. It sounds like they want autobots, not kids, to teach. I expect my children to concentrate, listen, follow rules etc but fully expect occasional slip ups at that age. As he's so lovely at home clearly the school just isn't right for him.

@Sunlight82
I can see this thread has already covered the 'stop punishing at home' line.

But when you go to the meeting with school ask what positive reinforcements they offer. They seem very quick to dole out negative sanctions. How depressing for the teacher and your son. Imagine if your boss only ever points out the negative aspects of your work. I would want the school to identify the good things your son does and ask them to be highlighted every day. I'm a primary teacher btw.

Point out that what you are doing at home and what they are doing in school obviously isn't working so you both need to try something different.

For you at home, you go crazy on the praise for anything he does well...eating, getting dressed, brushing teeth, etc etc. Tell him he is a good boy so he knows he can be good and is good numerous times a day. He's probably labelling himself as naughty now because of his school image.

I wouldn't rush into changing school but give them a few months to try a new approach (if they agree to this). Then other options would be Steiner or Montessori schools which don't do formal teaching until later (7 in Steiner). These are private schools but not in the price range of the posh ones.

Good luck and keep highlighting those positives.

@Amanduh those people clearly don’t have a very high bar,

Clearly you haven't suffered decades of emotional abuse at the hands of your mother!

The description in the op of how this little boy is being treated at home took me straight back to be a scared, isolated young child. That's what made it so heartbreaking for me to read.

Thankfully the op has far more insight into her behaviours than my mother (who I'm now extremely low contact with) ever has. She needs to listen to the advice on here (which is presumably why she posted) and make some massive changes to her parenting and quickly.

I also feel for her little girl who must be terrified to let herself be imperfect, even for a moment.

I'm not a teacher or anything similar so please disregard if you want to but I'd say, reading it, the punishments you list are actually going to stop him from learning to sit still and focus. Playing with toys eating as a family and watching TV seem to me quite good activities for developing his sitting, listening, concentrating and interacting skills. Maybe try and build in these activities as positive experiences rather than removing them. I do feel for you though OP. When school is going badly, it's really stressful. I expect, as a teacher you are even more conscious than most about how you don't want your child to be perceived in the staff room and that must be tough.

@Amanduh my bar is high. So high that if I hear of a parent making their 5 year old eat alone for a week and cry himself to sleep in a little ball I'll tell them that it's wrong.

Luckily op seems to have understood that and will change things now.

Op, my son at this age was so similar to yours. He was the class clown and very silly, overly affectionate, animated. 11 now and in a drama group and on stage regularly! It was just his personality coming out a bit i think because essentially he is pretty much the same boy he was at 5. Luckily, the school enjoyed his humour but also managed to reign in the silliness. He was never punished like your son at his school. They sound terribly strict and I feel sorry for your little boy. I am just wondering if the school is all wrong for him. Or it could be the school are going about this wrong, either way I think you have to find out from the school the how's and why's and create a better, kinder plan. Good luck op and i am sure your little boy will be feeling happier soon.

School is really hard for young children, it’s overly formal when kids just want to be kids. You have said yourself that your son is not a naughty kid so I think you just need to believe in that.
I’m glad you are listening to the feedback on here, I agree to a certain extent that if you are naughty in school then you need home punishments too but this isn’t required for every small thing, being punished for picking his nose is just ridiculous imo.

You do not want to punish to the point of extinguishing his spirit, it’s what sets him apart from the other kids

My son was similar at 5, I put it down to normal childhood behaviour. Yes he was pulled up at school but at home, his safe space he was allowed to play, eat with the rest of us, cuddle up with me for cartoon time and cuddle up for a story at bedtime. His behaviour wasn't perfect but no 5 year olds behaviour is, they are learning. My son felt secure and lived at home so fast forward to age 11 he is mature and sensible at school, works hard and never gets in trouble but I do allow him to cavort and be silly at home, in his safe space because even sensible and mature 11 year olds need space to be children

Ah OP

I feel your pain for a few reasons..

Firstly, DS1 was in trouble a lot in reception and I remember pulling my hair out. We tried everything from role play and books about treating others kindly and how to be respectful, to reward charts and stars etc... It was a very hard time for all of us and I felt so out of my depth. Worse still, he started to see himself as 'naughty' and his self esteem was suffering. We eventually got to the bottom of it and it seemed in part he was heavily under the influence of another more disruptive boy, coupled with the fact that DS has bucketfuls of energy, was only little etc... and he just seemed to be in the wrong environment. He went to a school that valued mindfulness, sitting quietly, music etc.. and don't value sport and anything high energy (things DS is good at and loves). Eventually we moved him to a different school. He had a fresh start, made some new, lovely friends, and over the last year all we've been told is how well he's doing and how he is a 'pleasure to have in the class'. The difference is incredible and he is so happy now. Alongside this, he also does plenty of daily sport from football to swimming to gymnastics, which channels his energy appropriately.

I wonder if your DS is just a square peg in a round hole, and a change of school might be beneficial?

(I also just wanted to add that when I was little my mum was always punishing me for things and I was constantly saying 'sorry' to the point j was basically sorry I even existed. This has sadly stayed with me and I am v anxious and apologise all the time. People even find it annoying now much I say sorry, which of course I apologise for! Please please stop punishing your little boy. I know from my own journey where this can end)

Good luck with everything, and do consider a change of school, it may be the right thing for him