Absolutely on my knees and I don’t know what to do

[TooMuchPeppa86]

I don’t even know where to start

I work part time (3 days) in a job that doesn’t really fit into part time hours. I cut my hours because I have two wee girls (5 and 2) who are my whole world and I thought it’s fine it’ll be a few years of working at nights once they’re asleep and then I can increase my hours in the office once they’re at school.

Five year old started school last month. Her sleep is beyond horrific. She has no interest in sleep she won’t even try. But I need to stay in her room or she just kicks off. Last night it was 11pm before she went to sleep. I then had to work until 3am to stay afloat.

I can’t do this any more. I can’t. The first thought I had when I woke up this morning was sheer panic about how behind I am at work because I can’t fit it all in.

She won’t have DH. He does the housework at night and keeps that ticking over.

You say she won’t accept your DH, but by accepting this you have already allowed her to set the pace.

Those saying it's a discipline thing and to do super nanny and rapid returns, I would have said this too until I was having this problem. For some kids it does not work. I did this repeatedly for night after night, for over 2hrs a go. The thing is, it escalates things. There are only so many times your Dd will willingly go back to bed. Then they won't. So you shepherd them. You pick them up. You drag them. You block their door. They're crying and screaming. Once things start getting physical, it's difficult not to smack. Once you've smacked them and they still won't comply, what next? And you're expecting them to somehow pack it in and go to sleep? Do you want to break your child and win at all costs? Or do you want to teach them how to calm themselves, feel secure and drop off to sleep?

If I leave her to it she just walks the floors.

I've only read the initial posts, but I'd just leave her to it after her story! She can walk around/play in her room if she wants to, eventually she'll fall asleep. She obviously loves having Mum all to herself at night, but you can't stay there for hours.

Does she have cuddly toys in her bed? My DS always wanted me to lie down with him, but he also had stuffed toys and I suggested he make them comfortable in the bed with him to keep him company. I used to hear him chatting to them as he got them settled...then he had to lie down quietly so as not to disturb them. It was so sweet! He's now 11 and would strongly deny that this ever happened.

Its difficult not to smack? If you feel that way I agree this method won't work for you.

I think you'd be better off doing 5 shorter days in the office and having a separation between work and home TooMuchPeppa86 - is that possible? Could you do the school and nursery run one end of the day (late start or early finish) and DH the other? Then he shares the burden?

You can't work from home with this kind of child, you need to work elsewhere.

If it's not possible leave the house after putting her to bed - just say you have to go to work. Obviously tell DH where you're really going - anywhere you can work in the evening (a university library, a coffee shop open late, even a civilised pub) and DH will be home for the girls.

I had a non sleeper like this but I taught evening classes 7-10pm two nights per week and weirdly he managed fine on those nights. He didn't sleep any better, and was sometimes still awake with a whole Playmobil and soft toy civilization and 25 books in his bed when I got in at 10:30pm, but he allowed DH to put him to bed with just one story and stayed in his room.

He still doesn't sleep through every night now he's nearly 9, but he falls asleep alone and doesn't disturb anyone unless he has a genuine problem. He has some sensory issues and a weighted blanket and a very, very familiar audiobook which he's heard a million times, and a dim nightlight, help.

Good luck. Seperate work and home.

God I had missed the bit about how she just walks the floors. OP I really would not care about that. As long as she stays in her room then fine. Just let her be.

@Indecisivelurcher - that's what we found out too. TBH, DD has a stubborn freak she could win Olympics with but we knew she was tired and stressed out. Who likes to be in a position like that? People get depressed from loneliness and we give all support we can to adults but with children it's "oh, you're spoiling her, block her, avoid her, ignore her, no eye-contact" and that's all to a child that's been already described as stressed out.
Why do we keep insisting on measures we wouldn't give to an adult? Imagine a child who is going through a stressful time, with stressed parents on the top, pushing them into a daily routine, finding themselves in an environment that is completely strange and new to them - yet we except this child to suit their behaviour to us, not create a fuss, like a machine.
Why can't children get some extra care, cuddles and love? I know that those extra cuddles when times were stressful for all of us were good for me and good for DD and we could go back to our routine in a much easier way because instead of additional stress we found ways to rely on each other and support each other.

@jenny I'm just making the point that rapid return can escalate things physically. After 6 months of being up from 1:30am for 2hrs then up at 5, I defo had my twitchy hand moments. I didn't want to go there so looked for another way. A way that actually worked for my daughter.

@eeriesilence I think kids of decent parents get way way more support, as they should, than adults do. This is a mother at the end of her tether. What about her? It seems sometimes that unless a mother has an actual breakdown, then her needs don't matter.
Sleep deprivation that goes on and on is terrible. It makes every little tiny stressy thing insanely difficult.

And sleeping through is not natural behaviour. People before electric light did not sleep like this. It is a skill you need to learn, and teachers need to help children learn that. And some children never learn it and become adults who find sleep difficult.

@indecisivelurcher I am sorry I should not have made that comment.
I think this method does not have to escalate physically, but I think it takes a lot of calm and firm patience which a sleep deprived OP is unlikely to have. Which is why I recommended she got her DP to do it.

I also would be inclined to leave her if she's just walking about.

We have a stairgate at the top of our stairs. We out DS to bed and leave him to it. If he gets up and wanders around, so be it. We stay downstairs. If he shouts on us we ignore him unless he's distressed. A few times we've come up to bed and he's been asleep in the hall or in our room and we move him back to bed, but 99% of the time he has a prowl around, has a little play or read, and then puts himself into bed.

@jennymanara - it happened to us too, when I had mad and crazy times in my new job, DD at the same time starting new school, her sleep was all over the place.
Co-sleeping and cuddles did both of us good - she needed the closeness and even waking up in the middle of the night all she needed to go back to sleep was to hug her. We both benefited from it.

I agree that a parents sleep is also a priority, but firm boundaries mean different things to different families. I think with an anxious child encountering a big change as described in the op, it’s not thetime for punitive or rigid discipline. Firm boundaries can look like sleep tokens, or not taking four hours of work home with you, or being clear with your partner that you need support. A lot of emphasis in some quarters on controlling the child’s behaviour when there’s a lot the adult can do here to help herself (work elsewhere, change work pattern, enlist husbands help: and that’s before you even start looking at working with the child’s sleep).

@madcatladyforever I agree, and I knew it wouldn’t take long before the “must be great to be perfect” posts started 🙄. It’s nothing to do with being perfect, but you don’t let them get to 5 and then start wondering how to sort out shit sleep. There’s way too much fannying around and not enough discipline.

OP, it seems like you are getting your arse kicked by everyone. Your child, your boss... You need to stop worrying about everyone else and toughen up before you fall apart, because then you’ll be no good to anyone.

A previous poster mentioned a compression blanket - our restless 5yo has responded brilliantly to a compression sheet which is cheaper and safer than a blanket and can be used all year. He used to wake himself up flailing 2-3 times per night and now he sleeps through. Ours came from a CIC called A Stitch Different.

What happens when you just let her stay up till 11? Would she just play and chatter while you do household chores/work?

That’s what mine do. Then at 10.30 ish we all go to bed at the same time.

Mine didn’t respond at all to the techniques suggested, we even hired 2 different sleep consultants and 3 months of trying each method none were sticking at all. We just accepted that this was the dc (mainly ds1) natural rhythm and it was better to go with it. Yes there are pros and cons. But generally the house is happier and we are all less tired and stressed.

@jenny no worries, your comment stung as it hit the mark! But I do think the situation we ended up in would have tested even the buddah! We recognised it wasn't working for dc, me or dh, and changed things.

At 5 I'm sorry but you should be able to say get back to bed. Who is in charge here ? Do you think our parents would have pandered to us like this. Its totally bonkers, take back control and tell her to go to bed and stay in it and mean it

desperatesux hope your job is drill sergeant otherwise you have missed your calling.
take back control - this actually made me giggle. It's obvious Brexit has been dragging on for too long.
We are talking a five year old stressed out child here, not some stroppy teenager taking drugs. A child that needs a bit of attention, love, cuddles. In return, you can sleep freely.
Me and my DH tend to relax discipline a bit around stressful times in our DD's life. It worked out a treat so far because it motivates her to go back to her routine and even do more.

We had some of this with our 6year old starting back to school (Not as bad as you OP, sounds so tough) but I found a water spray bottle, filled with water and some lavender from the garden and told her the fairies had sent me some magic spray to help her sleep. She gets 2 sorats of water over her pillow when i say goodnight and it's helped, a little! She's getting more sleep now which means she's not as grumpy and therefore school is not so hard, so it's all cyclical. I don't knowing it's the lavender itself, the story of the fairies or what has helped, but it's worth a try!

indecisivelurcher i agree. People always say about my daughter well just make her go to her room. If questioned on 'well how do i do that' its always comes down to the fact she should go because i said so and so she obviously doesn't respect me. It always comes from people that have tried reward charts, taking away privileges and its worked for them. Good for them. But ive tried all that with my daughter too and they didn't work. Shes as stubborn as an Ox. A trait that i hope she will use for good when shes older! When i say to people so what now should i pick her up and carry her to her room then lock her in there?? No. Oh OK then so whats worked for you hasn't worked for me. There are loads of things my daughter is great at and we have just the one issue so i try to keep it in perspective.

desperatesux nope - in the 70s my parents (pillar of the community professionals) used to put my sister's pram in the garage (my mother thinks this is fine as it was attached to the house) and later lock her in her room at the far end of the house (justified, says my mother, as we all needed our sleep). That's how our parents dealt with children who had real trouble sleeping. Is that what you'd advocate?

You and madcatlady are, to be fair, pontificating on matters you have no experience of.

Two of my children were good sleepers, if I'd stopped at two I'd be smugly patting myself on the head claiming that this was due to my firm but fair loving boundaries and routines etc. Third came along to remind me I'd just been lucky. He needed a lot more help.

Most children with sleep issues (assuming that they have structure and routine, which the OP's children do) have some kind of issue. They don't necessarily need a diagnosis for sensory processing issues or ASD traits or ADHD but they may have similar brain chemistry and struggle more than your average child to unwind and fall and stay asleep. Laying down the law doesn't work for children like this, much as you - without relevant experience or knowledge - may believe that saying it does makes it true.

p0ndering your post made me laugh. Ive spent too much time dog training. When i read you had got a spray bottle my first thought was you were going to suggest spraying the child as punishment until she goes back to bed :) thats what alot of people do with their dogs (spray them in their face with water as a shock tactic if they show aggression etc). I think i need more sleep to be more lucid :)

Before giving up work, I would think about paying for a sleep consultant. Might cost you £££ up front but would still be worth it if you save your job as a result.

Oh and a friend of mines daughter is now year 2 and always has gone to bed at 10.30pm ish. She has always been like that even when in pre school. She did daytime nap until she started school i think but now she has loads of energy, is doing fab at school and just doesn't need more sleep than 10.30pm - 7am. Her parents are night owls too so it works all round.