Absolutely on my knees and I don’t know what to do

[TooMuchPeppa86]

I don’t even know where to start

I work part time (3 days) in a job that doesn’t really fit into part time hours. I cut my hours because I have two wee girls (5 and 2) who are my whole world and I thought it’s fine it’ll be a few years of working at nights once they’re asleep and then I can increase my hours in the office once they’re at school.

Five year old started school last month. Her sleep is beyond horrific. She has no interest in sleep she won’t even try. But I need to stay in her room or she just kicks off. Last night it was 11pm before she went to sleep. I then had to work until 3am to stay afloat.

I can’t do this any more. I can’t. The first thought I had when I woke up this morning was sheer panic about how behind I am at work because I can’t fit it all in.

She won’t have DH. He does the housework at night and keeps that ticking over.

As a parent of an exceptionally wilful child I sympathise. Whilst my daughter will sleep, trying to get her to do something she doesn’t want is beyond a joke. When she was tiny controlled crying would continue until she was sick so we soon gave that up.

All I can say is keep at it, it will get easier. Try one night without pushing her, change the dynamics. Do as others have said and have a night away to yourself. Make DH step in regardless of whether she wants him. Go out for a walk while he deals with her and breathe xxx

I really feel for you. My daughter is the same. We've tried absolutely everything, I even took her to the doctor. Their only suggestion was to just let her stay up as late as she wants 😱

We spend hours in her room, and when she eventually goes to sleep you have to creep out really carefully otherwise she wakes up and it starts all over again. We can't just leave her alone because she screams, cries and bangs. The neighbours can hear her. It's exhausting and so frustrating.

My first was very much like you describe your 5 year old. Her sleep would get worse whenever she went through any kind of transition ie starting school. Although it’s written for younger children I would recommend reading The No-Cry Sleep Solution: Gentle Ways to Help Your Baby Sleep Through the Night By Elizabeth Pantley. In it it describes why some children are more sensitive and might experience separation anxiety at different stages of their development. It doesn’t mean that your child has SEN or ADHD. Just some Children find change more difficult than others and need more 1-2-1 support at this time. I agree completely with those that have said that you need to enlist your DH to support you in meeting her needs. Overtime my DH has become the key parent at night time and my kids often won’t go to sleep until he says goodnight to them. Finally as someone who frequently overworks - please put some boundaries in place around managing your work load. No one can function optimally when sleep deprived. Your mental health is paramount and is the first thing that you need to attend to (perhaps I should have written this first!). Can you get away for 1-2 nights and stay with a friend or book a b&b? Your DH might have a noisy night but you may be surprised.

Your daughter sounds just like my nearly 5yo who is stubborn and DD who is 2 is not much better and demands me for bedtime every night. Although I don't have to go to work as I'm a sahm, I totally get where you're coming from but take my hat off to you for coping with this alongside what sounds like a very demanding job. Just wanted to say that the only way my DH can do bedtime with DD2 is if I actually leave the house. If DD2 knows I'm in the house she will not let my (very willing) DH do anything. But if I'm out of the picture she is fine with her dad. Could you go to the house of a friend /neighbour /family member or even drive around the corner and sit in your car for a few evenings a week to catch up on work and leave your DH to do bedtime? See if that helps? I think though that you need to address your workload with your employer though. It's not fair that you are only paid for part time hours for what is clearly a full time job.

Are you eligible for parental leave www.gov.uk/parental-leave. By end of first term she might settle well into school and be enjoying it. Do consider other options like annual leave or work from home too.

Stop the pandering and teach her to sleep, would be my advice.
A set routine of a reasonable length then “goodnight go to sleep”. No more interaction until morning and a star chart for staying in her room. A firm no nonsense approach that makes it clear you are in charge.
Any getting up just walk her back to bed without interaction and say “It’s Sleep time”. No drinks, no loo visits, no books, no anything.

Obviously no screens or tv in the evening until she learns to settle. None at all after school. Get her exercising her imagination and her body to tire her out. An hour’s walk instead of CBeebies. Your two year old will like the fresh air too.

I had a bad sleeper. When he was little and kept getting up, I cleared my schedule and every single time he got up, I took him back, the first night was 63 times (I coulnted!). By day 4, he gave up and has been fine ever since.
I know you have to work but you can't carry on like this so take a holiday or unpaid leave for a week and be tough. No talking, sleeping next to them or any other thing that they want. She needs way more sleep as do you.
Just as an aside, rain or shine, I walk my kids to school so they get fresh air and exercise. It vital for good sleep.
Good luck

OP I have not read the full thread at all! Sorry!

However sleeping issues should subside with age with proper routine - lower sugar, increase protein, increase activity outside, reduce tv/screen time, set calm bedtime routine and rewards for the children managing it. Easier said than done hey!

If they don’t respond or you’ve already tried my massive list of unhelpful suck eggs advice, then consult your doctor. I have a friend who’s child has a prescription for melatonin. She is ASD and cannot switch off.

Alternatively you can try them on a diet of tryptphan high foods which will help. Ie turkey.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tryptophan

Don’t make income based changes which will harm your standard of life long term without looking at other options that will benefit you long term. Best of luck.

5 year old just starting school may be mentally wired and physically not tired in parallel. She’s taking a lot of new experiences in but having to sit still a lot which is new to her. She’s overtired and not tired enough in different ways and acting up at bedtime. It’s a phase. Don’t give up your job.

Give her a few weeks to settle down because she will. You may also need to retrain her by being firm. She needs to know it’s bed time (give her countdowns in intervals so she knows it’s coming), she must be asleep, mummy will not stay beyond a certain time and she cannot come in to mummies bed. If any of these things happen, a toy gets taken away.

She will kick off for the first 2/3 nights but she will learn. Best to wait until half term to do this. Take holiday the same week as you will have a battle which will almost break you until you’ve reset her.

I had this with my dd. I’d put her to bed, then she’d be up and down all night until I went to bed. The thing that worked in the end was to tell her I’d be back in 10 mins. She knew I’d go downstairs and set my alarm, then I’d come back to her to check on her. The deal was, she HAD to stay in bed and wait for me. I would then go up and down every 10mins until she fell asleep. She wasn’t aloud to get up and come down, otherwise I wouldn’t come back up with her. This method literally took a couple of nights. She was tired, and making her stay still in bed and wait, seemed to help her drop off. Worth a try? She’s fine now she’s older. She comes down sometimes, but knows that if she’s already been tucked in, I’m not coming up again!! Good luck.

Also maybe take her for a walk after school to physically tire her out and warm milk and some banana before bed may make her more sleepy.

MILK!! try to cut it out before bed. I know it sounds crazy but my first son had terrible Phase of not getting to sleep/night terrors and my DH suggested cutting out milk before bed, I thought it was nonsense but I was desperate so tried it... lo and behold it worked... I put it down to coincidence to be honest until DS number 2 came along and we had the same experience. worth a try. Don’t quit your job x

where do you live ??

A few things popped to my mind different to those suggested.

Why are you not eating together as a family at say 6 - 6.30?
Maybe the bath is waking her? Try a shower in the morning.
What’s her room like? Are her toys, in her room? A peaceful room just for sleeping is what most children need no toys, tv etc
No lights on.
Would she sleep better in a room with her sister?
Is her room too warm? Ideally it needs to be 17/18 degrees centigrade.
What is she like on waking? Is she refreshed or sluggish? At this age children need 11/13 hours of sleep.
No screens or exercise minimum of an hour before bed.
Family meal heavy in tryptophan (turkey, cheese, milk etc) may help, also melatonin supplements.

You must be completely exhausted. You most definitely have not failed her or your other little one. You're a fantastic Mom, you wouldn't be here asking and worrying about it if you were.
Could you and DH do bedtime together and reassure her that sleep is good for her body and brain, that you're close by, she's safe ( use the word safe) and there's no need to worry or check you're still there. You're not going anywhere without her.

It's exhausting. You have my sympathy. My two girls both had sleep problems and the above was suggested at the children’s sleep clinic.

Unfortunately, bedtime needs to be boring and consistent. Taking her back saying she's safe each time is probably also necessary as it's a habit/ pattern she's used to. Literally say ” it's okay, you're safe, it's bedtime now” and put her back calm and gently. Don't enter into an argument or conversation.
Have a chat with her teacher too. Mine used to disappear for an afternoon nap at school she was so tired, then wired until 10 pm.

Good luck. I hope some of the above can help. It's difficult to know where to start, especially when there's lots of change in her life - starting school is a huge deal. They're so little and cuddly still and there's nothing wrong with that. Reassurance goes a long way. Xx

I have an 8yo who doesn't sleep. He was awful when he was little and I sat in his room until 9/10pm every night until he was nearly 4. It changed when he got grommets and then he could hear us which made self settling so much easier. When he couldn't hear, if he couldn't see us we pretty much didn't exist.
To be fair, he still is awful at sleeping. Best advice I have is teach her to read and tell her to stay in bed. If we stop the 8yo reading he keeps coming downstairs. If we let him read himself to sleep he settles much earlier but ultimately, once he figured out he could read, we got our evenings back.

I haven't read the whole thread but has anyone mentioned the Sleep Charity? They've just won an award for the work that they do with families. They have a FB page.

TooMuchPeppa86 Oh I feel for you, I really do. My 5 yo was very much like this at bedtime and sometimes overnight whilst my then 1 year old was still waking 8-9 times a night. I also hit a wall. We hired a sleep consultant for the younger one (we'd tried all the techniques) then once that started to work spoke to the HV about the older one and found a consistent method that worked for us. It was so so hard but it paid off and now we have techniques for the odd nights when he has trouble sleeping because he's anxious about something. I too condense my hours and end up working after the kids are in bed but would not have been able to do it whilst in the midst of the sleep deprivation.

I'd look at the sleep charity, go to a sleep consultant or a HV who specialises in sleep so they can listen to your exact situation and help tailor a plan with you then support you through it. To give you an idea we paid around £250 and got months of support, I know that is a large sum all at once but it was worth every penny and some.

Your dd sounds a lot like my 5 year old, he actually benefitted from more sleep once we'd sorted the little one out and it is always worse anxiety wise when he's overtired. He's no where near as independent as a lot of his friends either, but he is getting there. The first half term of school was hard but it got easier from there on in. He's in year 1 now and so much better.

Good luck

I haven't rtft so sorry if I'm repeating previous advice. What time do you put her to bed? Since starting school my 4yo is having to go to bed by 5:30-6. If we miss this window he becomes over tired and is really difficult to get to sleep. Could you afford to get some professional advice. We spent £60 On a sleep specialist and it was well worth it. The thing that really worked for us was bringing bedtimes forward. It is so hard trying to balance everything but like everything this is a phase and it will pass. Good luck OP

Let her walk the floor in her bedroom, tell her she is not to play and door stays open- she is 5 years old and must understand she is not your boss

Ours sound similar - and particularly with me who gets quite stressed over bedtime and getting them to sleep. We lie with them (4&2) until they are asleep.

My husband never had any issues getting them to sleep, he falls asleep himself and they are usually asleep moment later.

My point is that she may be picking up on your stress too. If your husband really can't help then I'd say play some music you find soothing, on loop, and try and relax yourself. Pretend to go to sleep (or actually do). Ignore everything she does, and make sure the room is as dark as possible (groblinds) so she can't see to find things to entertain herself with. Bedtimes are so much easier since we adopted this, until I get stressed again (and if they are tired, this makes it 100% worse as I think they will fall asleep quickly and they don't so I get cross.... and so it goes on).

A banana before bed is supposed to help to (magnesium), not sure it helps mine but if they say they are hungry it's always a banana they get offered.

And don't deny water.... apparently being thirsty is a precursor to sleep. Have a sippy cup to hand (ideally so light doesn't go on) and make no fuss over it.

Haven’t read the whole thread but my eldest was also very clingy and mummyish. We used to do “downstairs night” once a week on a Friday when she would be allowed downstairs in her dressing gown after the younger siblings had gone to bed. We’d play a game just me and her or do a craft together. It meant she got some concentrated attention and did improve her confidence I think.

I’ve been there OP! I’ve somehow survived - largely thanks to Red Bull and flapjack I think - and made it to the other side. My DC are now 11 and nearly 8.

Are you sure your workload is fair ? If you need to catch up in the evenings, go out. I spent hours in the nearest Starbucks (still 20 mins drive away) with my laptop and a large soya hot choc! DH then had to do bedtime. It took about a week and a half, but DD started settling for him in the end.
She was then better with me. Starting school is a big deal, but you can try and capitalise on the “big girl now” change.

Stay strong. Don’t quit your job. It won’t be forever. If you are routinely having to catch up on work in the evenings, talk to your line manager about your workload and priorities.

I had this problem. It took about 3 months to get a reasonable amount of sleep, but after 6 we had 8-12 every night.

1. Put a baby gate across so she can't wander out. Once the threshold is crossed, it's game over.
2. After story, don't sit in the bed. I used to sit on the floor on the other side of the room.
3. 1 story, then lights out (including landing) my DD had a nightlight and that was it.
4. Give it an hour and then leave them to it (obviously check in).
5. Don't give in to manipulation.

It does all come together eventually. You just have to pesevere.

Don't be hard on yourself but also I feel you have allowed this to build (as we all do) for an 'easy' life. The not sleeping is an issue that needs tackling but so is your work load!! If you are part time then your work load and hours needed should reflect this. If you have too much work for the hours paid then you have slipped into the 'work has let me reduce my hours but not my load' situation! If you are so tired and stretched it all seems too much, try and have a couple of days to reset. Sit down with your boss, your husband, your child. Create a new plan. Starting school is hard and my child seemed only able to offload his brain at bedtime, we made a quiet time after tea to talk about the day. Bedtime routine was then fixed, good luck x

I'm afraid I don't have any experience in dealing with a problem like this, but there seems to be lots of good (if varied) advice on here.

One thing I have honed in on is that you don't eat your evening meal until 10pm or later. Is it possible to eat earlier as a family so that dc's have some of your time then? Maybe give them a snack after school and prepare a family meal with a bit of 'help' from dc's (my dn loved peeling sprouts at 4yrs). A carby meal might also help make dd tired.

Good luck OP