Social services, police or keep my nose out of it

[hoxtonbabe]

Hi, this is more a what should I do?

Back in July, I was getting ready with son for school, about 8.15am we heard lots of howling, crying, etc from somewhere at the back of our flat/garden. We then realised it was from one of the gardens opposite and that the parents of a girl aged around 4 had locked her out on the doorway/steps leading down to their garden. I’ve never really seen this family so thought it may have been an AirBnB???

The lady from the house who’s garden backs on to mine/opposite and is about 3 doors away from this family also heard the girl crying etc, and was asking if she was ok, where her mummy was etc but she just kept crying. I could see there were people in the flat, so realised it was a form of punishment after about 5 minutes of this i was about to call the police but then the mother came out, and although I couldn’t clearly hear what they were saying I could see the girl nodding yes, as the mother was calmly talking to her and then they went inside so I left it at that. I must add that the whole thing went on for about 15 mins in total, but initially I wasn’t focused on it as I was getting ready and thought it was just a child crying in general, but when it didn’t stop and was sounding more distressing that’s when I actually looked to see where it was coming from.

Roll on today, my son comes running into my bedroom saying that girl has been locked out again and she’s crying. Now I’m thinking this not a one off air bnb and this doesn’t seem right. Same as before, mum is in the house, girl is crying please let me in, mum then eventually let’s her back in.

Where I’m wavering is who do I call? My gut instinct is SS, or do I leave this family to discipline their child in the way they want ( even though she cries so loud most of us within a 10house radius can hear her ) whilst I’ve witnessed this twice in the space of 2 months, that’s not to say it hasn’t happened when I’ve been out.

They haven’t physically harmed her to my knowledge, and I supposed it’s an extreme version of a time out. Other than the foxes that are usually sunbathing on people’s deck chairs there is no chance of her getting taken, however if she was to get so distraught and Shuffled around she could fall down the metal stairs ( there is at least 10 steps).

When I was a kid the family next door used to do this to their kids. I would hear them over the fence crying 'please mummy, please can I come in'. And then the sobs. I used to find it really distressing to hear. I can't imagine how distressing it was for the actual little kids locked out.

Putting a three year old outside your apartment door and leaving them in a hall way is fucking bat shit too.

Loving that so many posters are okay with containing children inside the house some way but god forbid you send your child out into your own garden.

She wasn’t in the garden though, was she? And she wasn’t sent out, she was locked out.

Some of these responses are fucking ridiculous. Locking a 4 year old child outside as punishment/naughty step is OK?! Fuck me, I really for some of your children. You people ought to be ashamed.

OP, I would report to the police (999 if you think the child is in immediate danger of harm) and social services as a definitem

That`s bullying and bad parenting,poor child.
I would report it but to who I am un-sure.

I think there is some discrimination on here actually.

If the child was in a beautiful garden full of flowers, swings and animals, fully enclosed and safe, she was warm and dry but still in the garden because she was misbehaving - taking time to cool down and collect her thoughts so to speak, but she is having a bit of a tantrum nonetheless.

NO ONE would bat an eyelid, they certainly wouldn’t consider it abuse or neglect. They would not be worried for her or about her, and would assume the parents were dealing with it.

But because this mother does not have outside space, despite it still being safe by being fully enclosed, she is being criticised on here.

I have lost count of the number of times my neighbours grandson is left screaming in the garden, as he demands sweets or ice cream from his grandparents. They explain calmly that he can’t have them, he screams, they ask him to stop, he doesn’t - and so they get up calmly without a word and go inside, and shut the door. Every time he has a tantrum they do a variation of this. It works. He stands there screeching for a few minutes, but then he does calm down and then they carry on playing. It was very effective. Learning not scream and shout, lose your temper and moderate emotion is such an important skill for young children about to start school.

Report it, this is not responsible parenting. For those on the thread that see no harm in a small child hysterically trying to get back into her own home after being locked out by the person who is supposed to protect and care for her should have look at their own parenting.

I really don’t get the stairs issue, my two year old goes up and down stairs on her own yet suddenly it’s dangerous for a 4 year old

I work in child safeguarding. If there was a case where I was already involved you wouldn't likely know, but school have concerns, other people do. If there are already concerns with regards to mental health, neglect, abuse.... Then shutting a child outside as punishment would be HUGE and may be the tipping point for that child moving onto a child protection plan for example - where social workers can do unannounced visits without parent's consent. This for many is where things become apparent that weren't before. Seriously, it really IS all about the puzzle - everyone has different bits. If there are no other concerns then no worries, I would always rather report than hear that something terrible has happened months/years down the line... No one's going to shout at you for wasting time, it's just building a picture. And if this becomes a pattern then yes, on it's own it may be enough for a full social work assessment, that child IS potentially at risk of significant harm.

And it's not a child having a screaming meltdown about something else- the child is screaming to be let in which one assumes means they have been locked out - that's more concerning. Of course we all might leave a child having a tantrum about coming in from playing in the garden- removing them from the house and locking them outside is not OK. We don't lock children in any other space as punishment acceptably - might send them to their room but wouldn't lock them there.... Not to mention the fact that children can't self regulate and need help to calm down.... So actually sending then to their room etc is pointless. They stop crying eventually because they learn no one is coming. Not because they're calm and happy.

I think SS would be concerned if they knew the parent Was locking the child in the room.

Why would they

And she wasn’t sent out, she was locked out. supposedly so she could be punished by not just walking back in, which is what you would do if you sent your child to their room for punishment and they kept walking back out right?

Locks on doors are not something SS are keen on - even internal locks for young people being physically abused by siblings - because of risks of people not being to get out..... Locking children in places is not seen as acceptable... Surprisingly 🙄🙄🙄?!?!

Yes I do find that surprising Piehunter, I see nothing wrong with locking a child in their bedroom if they won't stay there themselves or if they are being violent or dangerous.

Ds has a room that he cannot get out of at night so is in effect locked in. SS know and are fine with it. His particular needs make it appropriate. He isn't locked in anywhere to calm down although we have held doors shut for a short while when he is trying to get to us in order to stop potential serious injury to us. Again SS know about this. I wouldn't put him outside because I know that he won't calm down outside and there are risks like headbutting brick walls.

I don’t see the issue with holding a door closed or locking it if the child won’t stay in, or in this case out. What punishment is happening if a child can just walk away.. I’ve never had to do it but that’s because my kid tends to stay wherever I’ve sent her. She will be crying or screaming but she stays. The younger gets strapped in her pushchair if she becomes too much of a danger to herself or others or I basically hold her on my lap, she is four. She also gets zipped into a special bed at night and can’t get herself out, we also have a gate on her room. Maybe this is why I see no issue with sending a child out to an enclosed area to calm down, also, the stairs issue doesn’t matter, when a kid gets sent to their room in most cases there are stairs involved.. or do we all accompany our four year olds up and down the stairs every time?

I really don’t get the stairs issue, my two year old goes up and down stairs on her own yet suddenly it’s dangerous for a 4 year old

Do you let your 2 year old walk up and down metal sitrs while completely historical wondering if you are ever going to come back for her?

even adults can fall down stairs. Its not that she should be able to use sitars that's the issue, shes not thinking about being safe on the stiars, she is thinking about being locked out what should be the safest place in the world for her by the 1 person who should always make her feel safe.

IMO not the best way to discipline a child, not really like the naughty step at all. I think this would be traumatic

I wouldn’t lock my child out at all, I just think people are exaggerating about the stairs, I bet the child plays out in the garden and uses the stairs to go up and down.

I’m struggling to see how this is so different to a time-out in another place. Sounds like it was warm and no less safe than being on the landing.

I don’t do time out. So not something I would do, but there are loads of things I wouldn’t do that I wouldn’t report to SS.

@PumpkinP

I just think people are exaggerating about the stairs, I bet the child plays out in the garden and uses the stairs to go up and down.

not when she's in a distraught state. I think the stairs concerns are very valid.

I don’t do time out. So not something I would do, but there are loads of things I wouldn’t do that I wouldn’t report to SS.

I agree

But because this mother does not have outside space, despite it still being safe by being fully enclosed, she is being criticised on here.

The OP has not been back to explain the living situation, but I got the impression that they lived in 2 story terraced flats, popular in London's inner suburbs. Each flat would have a very narrow back garden with the upper flat having outside stairs leading to the garden - in this case of the fire escape type. In this case the child was not calm enough to go down into the garden to carry on playing; she didn't learn to moderate her emotions (whatever that means) stayed at the top screaming until the door was finally unlocked.

As OP mentioned the steps are steep and metal so not comparable to a carpeted indoor landing where she would at least have the option of other rooms and if she fell she would be cushioned somewhat.

I wouldn't do that to a dog as punishment nevermind a young child.

The kid only seems to be hanging round the door, though, the stairs aren't really the issue, are they?

Also OP said the mum is apparently ignoring the child but that she can see the mum pottering around. It's not beyond imagination that the mum can see where the child is?

As for the deathly screeching. My neighbours came running round once (to see if they needed to call the police or ambulance) because my #2 was in full tantrum. Because I wouldn't let her stick her finger in an electric socket*. (it was summer, we had the French windows open). I'm such a bad mother.

*before the elf 'n' safety brigade start: it was post unplugging an iron in the 20 seconds before i got the safety cover back on it.

Haven't rtft. But we called ss because our neighbour kept doing this. Very glad we did.

Trust your instincts.