Social services, police or keep my nose out of it

[hoxtonbabe]

Hi, this is more a what should I do?

Back in July, I was getting ready with son for school, about 8.15am we heard lots of howling, crying, etc from somewhere at the back of our flat/garden. We then realised it was from one of the gardens opposite and that the parents of a girl aged around 4 had locked her out on the doorway/steps leading down to their garden. I’ve never really seen this family so thought it may have been an AirBnB???

The lady from the house who’s garden backs on to mine/opposite and is about 3 doors away from this family also heard the girl crying etc, and was asking if she was ok, where her mummy was etc but she just kept crying. I could see there were people in the flat, so realised it was a form of punishment after about 5 minutes of this i was about to call the police but then the mother came out, and although I couldn’t clearly hear what they were saying I could see the girl nodding yes, as the mother was calmly talking to her and then they went inside so I left it at that. I must add that the whole thing went on for about 15 mins in total, but initially I wasn’t focused on it as I was getting ready and thought it was just a child crying in general, but when it didn’t stop and was sounding more distressing that’s when I actually looked to see where it was coming from.

Roll on today, my son comes running into my bedroom saying that girl has been locked out again and she’s crying. Now I’m thinking this not a one off air bnb and this doesn’t seem right. Same as before, mum is in the house, girl is crying please let me in, mum then eventually let’s her back in.

Where I’m wavering is who do I call? My gut instinct is SS, or do I leave this family to discipline their child in the way they want ( even though she cries so loud most of us within a 10house radius can hear her ) whilst I’ve witnessed this twice in the space of 2 months, that’s not to say it hasn’t happened when I’ve been out.

They haven’t physically harmed her to my knowledge, and I supposed it’s an extreme version of a time out. Other than the foxes that are usually sunbathing on people’s deck chairs there is no chance of her getting taken, however if she was to get so distraught and Shuffled around she could fall down the metal stairs ( there is at least 10 steps).

so Rain Hail Sleet or Snow, this small Child is locked outside as a form of 'naughty stepping

Where the hell has the OP said that? Shes seen her twice. Once in July once today. No mention of the weather. I doubt anywhere in this country has had snow on either say. Talk about building things up

joxer The child is four, she is not two years old. She can climb up and downstairs safely one would imagine. My children have been going up and down stairs since they were toddlers.
It is an hysterical response to call SS.
If she has a tiny flat, maybe there are not ample choices for time out.
Op probably would not have noticed had the child been sitting quietly, it is the commotion she was making that made the op notice, which is probably why she was put there.

I am all for calling SS if there is even a hint of abuse or neglect, but in this case I just can not see it at all. The mother has been described as 'calm' how many of us can claim we are the epitome of calm all of the time?
Some of the problems we see today stem from an absence of boundaries and discipline, and whilst I do believe there are better ways to deal with children than putting them outside, I can think of much worse! I very much wish my parents had put ME outside until I had calmed down rather than losing their temper and hitting me.

You don’t see it as a concern. Others do.

she is screaming, begging to come back in, knocking on the door.. you know when kids cry so much to the point they are catching their breath (hyperventilating I think), that is how this girl is..

DD can still get herself worked up to this state over pretty much nothing.

The other day she got it into her head she wasn’t going to go to school and had a massive melt down. We’ve learned that very little helps. Even hugging her sends her off worse. Sometimes we just have to ride it out. It started with her screaming “mummy you’re hurting me, ow, ow ow” I was brushing her hair, same as I do every day, no different.

At this point people would have been walking past taking their kids to school. I hope nobody decided to call SS or the police. 🙄

I think you should inform SS. I don't think it is ok at all, and I think they will visit to discuss it.

It sounds like the girl is having a massive tantrum, and is being put on time out for a reasonable amount of time.

Personally I'd have the time out inside the house, not in the garden. But provided it's a closed garden behind the house I don't think it's social services worthy, the weather is fine and it's not dark or cold.

Don't think the crying sounds unusual, especially if being put on time out for throwing a tantrum in the first place.

Of course there could be something sinister going on, but something sinister could be going on in any of your neighbors houses. Lots of kids screaming on naughty steps in there,too.

I have no idea if that's just a mum struggling to discipline or not.

Like seriously people saying "put the kid in their bedroom as punishment" a. Wouldn't the kid just... Play instead of consider what wrong they did? B. My mum did that and I used to just... Play. I guess I played until I calmed down.
Once my dad was mad at me and locked me in the bathroom after turning off the water to the house. Most boring 10 mins of my childhood lol its etched in my brain.

I grew up in an educated middle class family in a deprived working class area. At the time I accepted my parents view that we were privileged and superior to our neighbours. Looking back I know that my parents were abusers who got away with it because our neighbours were blindsided by their degrees and posh accents.

Report to the school OP. They will take it from there.

Wasn’t there something last year (could be year before) where a lad was left outside by his family and he died in the freezing cold?? His mother and grandfather were arrested iirc.
This something to flag up with either or both. Poor kid

I have sent my child outside for some time out before. I do it because he completely loses the plot and lashes out at his sisters or starts hitting me or breaking something. Time out inside doesn’t work for him. And yes he has gone outside in the rain before, but crucially he has been handed a coat and made to put wellies on first. And no I wouldn’t do it in a howling gale.

Sometimes he likes it, a chance to calm down and go crazy and run around. Sometimes he screams blue murder. I always stand and watch him, he’s out there until he is calm. Whether that is 10 seconds or 10 minutes.

Our garden is safe and secure and I think if you’re happy to send them out to play unsupervised (watching from a window) in the garden then why not time out. Time out is not punishment is it, it’s time to reflect and calm down.

But no I wouldn’t do it on a flight of stairs or anywhere they could run off to danger.

Until someone can tell me how to calm down the situation with my son who has challenging behaviour (currently being assessed as has some asd traits) he will go outside in order to calm everyone down. I’d rather a child outside somewhere safe having time out than being smacked with a slipper for being a brat.

I was an LSA for a short time and a year 6 disclosed to me that her stepdad did a similar thing to her and her brother. I was concerned but realised I had to not judge straight away. There could have been a number of things going on. I decided to let the head know and she asked me to document the disclosure which I did. I didn't think too much more about it.

Well I was wrong. This family ended up in a shelter due to domestic violence and the year 6 was in full knowledge that the mum was being raped by stepdad. This year 6 child was amazing and I think about them often. Smart, funny. No kid deserves this crap. There's a lot of minimising on this thread. Tell social services. It's up to them to safeguard the child.

And ffs, this kid is 4 years old! A baby! Why is everyone on here projecting their own parental choices and trying to justify what they might have done when this child will be let down in the process. This thread is so upsetting.

I honestly cannot believe how many of you think this is ok!

The child is locked outside near a metal flight of stairs. Where do the stairs lead to?

This would worry me and I think SS would be the best call.

Are the stairs those mental fire escape stairs? If so I can’t think why anyone would not report. It is highly dangerous to leave a small child out there, especially as the OP says she is unsupervised.

It may be abuse it may not, that's what social services are there for. They make that judgement call not us!
I'd ring and report it, if it's all totally innocent no harm done, they might just discuss alternative punishment stategies. If the family are already on their radar this might be really important information.
Report it though, how would you feel if you didnt and then something happened to the child

Report it to Children’s Services. Your concern will go through the MASH (Multi-agency Safeguarding Hub) social workers there will triage it and decide whether it meets threshold. Even if it doesn’t, it’s a concern that will be logged in the family record in case of any further incidents etc.

Assuming most children of this age go and down the stairs all day long, I am not sure why the steps are important provided they do not lead to a road or the outside (op confirmed the door at the bottom is locked)
So it is an enclosed area.
Obviously if the child was any younger op would not even need to post to know what to do, she would simply call SS.
I don't feel this mother has done anything wrong, she has asked her child to go outside to calm down. This is not an unreasonable request unless it is cold/dark/stormy etc. Being outside is a very good way to calm down and I am not sure why people are so animated about it.
Most adults I know step out for a 'breather' when they cross/stressed/need a break. What is the difference?

When my children need a break/get cross they voluntarily go outside. It is a stress reliever to be outside in the fresh air.

she has asked her child to go outside to calm down. This is not an unreasonable request unless it is cold/dark/stormy etc.

Ahh come on now! There’s no asking being done. She is putting the child outside against their will and locking the door. Entirely different than someone voluntarily stepping outside for a breather. You know this. You aren’t stupid.

I guess the problem is that the punishment is close to normal and acceptable, which is confounds things when trying to make a judgement - I.e time out is a normal, acceptable punishment and as people have said there’s nothing wrong with asking kids to go outside.

The stairs aren’t good and I wouldn’t feel safe at all but different parents make different judgement calls about things all the time. So as a PP said it’s either a mum struggling to deal with a naughty toddler or just another small way that the mum is abusive or neglectful toward her DD.

Given the fact that it is a possible sign of something more going on maybe report. It’s just the amount of times I’m sure people have snapped with small children, but are perfectly loving parents, it also seems a bit harsh? And you’ve only seen her do this twice? I don’t know...

I do it sometimes with one of mine (same age). She can melt down in a matter of a millisecond and start screaming like she's being brutally tortured, and often it comes with hitting / biting. It does not happen too often (maybe once a month), and I cannot really understand the triggers. Like the hairband is too tight or too blue.
My explanation for her is that we don't do things like that in the house, if she wants to behave like that, she's better go outside and come back when her normal self is back. It is a part of house rules.
I had a word with the neighbours though and explained the situation. It is not ideal parenting, but I genuinely tried everything, only physical isolation works. I don't have a one-way lockable door in the house, that actually sounds quite dangerous to me from the fire safety point of view.

There is no harm in reporting it to SS if OP is concerned.

I'm wondering if there is another option; go and speak to the mum, let her know what you've seen/heard and offer to help her get some support? You said she spoke to the little girl calmly and could see the mum pottering nearby so it sounds as though she was ready to respond once her daughter was calmer but maybe there's something else going on that means this form of time out feels like the safest option. Perhaps she's struggling to get support with her child's challenging behaviour because she's fine at nursery/school, maybe the child is being violent towards another child or vulnerable person in the family home, possibly she doesn't realise how worrying the situation looks...

There are all sorts of possibilities and I think I'd want to go and speak with the mum first but I would also let her know that I was also going to contact social services/whoever to ask for some support.

Someone close to me put her violent, screaming 6-yr-old outside the back door one breakfast time for a few minutes. A few weeks later the police did a welfare check because an anonymous neighbour reported her. Had the anonymous neighbour knocked on the door and offered to make the parent a cup of tea, or if there was anything they could do, they'd have learned that the family had been through an horrific couple of years full of bereavement, upheaval, general sadness and ongoing health worries and that this was a strategy agreed with relevant professionals to use occasionally in order to buy time to get other children in the house to safety. Instead, this parent is feeling even more isolated and judged than she did, has lost confidence and is constantly worried that she may lose her job as a result.

I've referred neighbourhood children to social services on the basis of things I've seen/heard but apart from an incident involving potential immediate danger, I've done so with the knowledge of the neighbour.

When ds gets very distressed he has to be put in another room for everyone's safety and because being by himself is often he only way he can calm down. Most of the time these days he takes himself off but occasionally we still have to make him do it to avoid everyone getting hurt and he may continue to shriek and shout for 15 mins. I don't though like isolation as a punishment.