Social services, police or keep my nose out of it

[hoxtonbabe]

Hi, this is more a what should I do?

Back in July, I was getting ready with son for school, about 8.15am we heard lots of howling, crying, etc from somewhere at the back of our flat/garden. We then realised it was from one of the gardens opposite and that the parents of a girl aged around 4 had locked her out on the doorway/steps leading down to their garden. I’ve never really seen this family so thought it may have been an AirBnB???

The lady from the house who’s garden backs on to mine/opposite and is about 3 doors away from this family also heard the girl crying etc, and was asking if she was ok, where her mummy was etc but she just kept crying. I could see there were people in the flat, so realised it was a form of punishment after about 5 minutes of this i was about to call the police but then the mother came out, and although I couldn’t clearly hear what they were saying I could see the girl nodding yes, as the mother was calmly talking to her and then they went inside so I left it at that. I must add that the whole thing went on for about 15 mins in total, but initially I wasn’t focused on it as I was getting ready and thought it was just a child crying in general, but when it didn’t stop and was sounding more distressing that’s when I actually looked to see where it was coming from.

Roll on today, my son comes running into my bedroom saying that girl has been locked out again and she’s crying. Now I’m thinking this not a one off air bnb and this doesn’t seem right. Same as before, mum is in the house, girl is crying please let me in, mum then eventually let’s her back in.

Where I’m wavering is who do I call? My gut instinct is SS, or do I leave this family to discipline their child in the way they want ( even though she cries so loud most of us within a 10house radius can hear her ) whilst I’ve witnessed this twice in the space of 2 months, that’s not to say it hasn’t happened when I’ve been out.

They haven’t physically harmed her to my knowledge, and I supposed it’s an extreme version of a time out. Other than the foxes that are usually sunbathing on people’s deck chairs there is no chance of her getting taken, however if she was to get so distraught and Shuffled around she could fall down the metal stairs ( there is at least 10 steps).

I think we all agree it's not ideal parenting, yet some of us have done it

Seriously - straw poll here - how many of us have locked our children outside onto a platform at the head of an open flight of metal steps for 15 minutes of a time?

I'm sort of guessing that the answer is going to be a big round zero.

15 minutes at a time, not of a time.

Just thought that might make you feel better :)

I should add that I wouldn’t do this, especially at this age and for that long. I just prefer to have a firm word right at the time and then aim to distract.

@CloudyVanilla

Thanks for the link. My almost 15 year old is entirely unaffected, very confident and I wish I could put her in 15 minutes time out these days lol.

This sounds like a time out / naughty step.

Kids cry and tantrum.

It's their back step? Onto a secure garden?

It's not raining / snowing / not even cold.

What is the issue?

@lovemenorca
@FindusCrispyPancakes

Thanks for your input. That makes a lot of sense too

Shit I only just realised at the end it says 10 Metal steps.

That does make it less acceptable for me. But I still don’t think it’s serious enough to call anyone, personally?

I honestly wouldn't be too concerned about this, it sounds like timeout to me, just outside rather than inside and if it's a contained environment what's the harm?

My children used to get a minute per year of age from when they sat still and were calm, so often 10minutes for a 5 year old.

The child being very distressed doesn't mean she is abused, my eldest used to scream blue murder but essentially it was because he was furious at not getting his own way. I work with small children and spend a lot of time reassuring parents that their child is angry, not upset and it's ok to not give in!,

Omg she let her child outside in their own garden for 5 minutes, how dare she! 😂🙄

Also how do you know the door was locked? How do you know the parent isn't sat right behind the door crying and wondering where she went wrong for her child to behave in this way?
Mind your own business unless there is abuse!

@newmumatschool it doesn’t just sound like abuse, it IS abuse and you are failing that child by not reporting! How on earth can you sleep at night, having watched a child being beaten by a brush and NOT report the parents?

@hoxtonbabe please contact the nspcc let them decide if anything needs to be done. My Mum had a neighbour who would do this to her dd- who was non verbal autistic- reporting her actually helped the Mum in the end who was desperate and it helped her get a diagnosis of autism for her child!

My neighbours used to do this. They are from another country where apparently this is a normal and acceptable form of discipline. Me, my Indian NDN and my Polish nanny didn’t like it (which convinced me it wasn’t me being racist and that it’s not OK in many cultures) and used to hammer on the door until they let him in and say ‘it’s dangerous out here’ After about 6/7 times they stopped. What worries me a bit now is what punishments are they dishing out that we can’t see?

If it wasn't for time-out when dd was young, though I think I stopped needing it when she turned 4, I'm not sure what I would have done. Put myself in time out maybe lol.

I've called police on neighbours downstairs for them screaming at their little girl and the child choking sobbing and then screaming as if smacked periodically. Things have totally changed and there has not been a single episode of the mother shouting at the little girl since the second reporting. They however have begun to maliciously make up lies about me and report me to the council (for swearing at their child?????? WTAF????). So it can have a negative effect on you reporting. But I'm happy knowing that the little girl downstairs has a nicer life now.

Those who are saying 'I don't think social care or the police would care'

You have absolutely NO idea of what else is happening with that family already or what kind of involvement they already have. What if this family were already on child protection or TAC which was about to be stepped down and the OP's account is what helps keep that family on the plan and receiving support?

What if the child's nursery or school have reported minor concerns but not enough to go to social work assessment? What if the child had come to nursery with a few suspicious bruises on occasion but they have always been given an adequate explanation so it was taken no further? Then OP passes on her concerns and suddenly, the penny drops and we can start to build up a picture of what could be going on in that house.

If you ever have concerns about a child, you should always pass them on. Safeguarding is everybodies responsibility.

Butchy. A friend of mine is a very senior social worker in A large city. Her rule of thumb is that if something feels like abuse it probably is abuse, regardless what culture the family is from.

Butchy. A friend of mine is a very senior social worker in A large city. Her rule of thumb is that if something feels like abuse it probably is abuse, regardless what culture the family is from.

I'd certainly be calling the social (if not the police) if I saw someone whacking a young child with an implement, irrespective of culture. Sounds like it might be a regular event too.

Would love to hear PP's justification for not doing so.

I think the stark contrast here is the OPs little neighbour and the poster with the Kosovan family who beat their poor child with a broom FFS.
If one good thing comes from this thread, I hope it's that that poster reports that family. It IS abuse under any definition!

I don't care if the family come from outer space where it's an accepted form of discipline. It's fucking abuse and believe me, the child will thank you in years to come if they knew you had saved them.

I've been in therapy and when talking about the abuse my therapist asked me what would you say to that little girl that you were now? My answer? I wish someone had saved you.

Please don't leave that little Kosovan child to suffer any more. It's not fucking right and has upset me actually.

@Uniformuniformuniform

My opening sentence was “this is a what should I do”

Where have I jumped to call the police or SS I said my gut is to call SS but I also wrote should I keep out of it.

I came on here to get opinions and advice on this and had I said xxx had happened and I called SS or the police then fair enough, but I’m putting 3 options out there to see what the majority would do.

I've actually had discussions with next door neighbours from my childhood and the mother there said 'of course we knew what was going on, but it just wasn't the done thing at the time to get involved'.
So I suffered years of torture, culminating in BPD and alcohol addiction. Depression, anxiety etc. I'm fucked up because of the abuse. Save that little child please.

@hoxtonbabe TBH I don't think a call to SS would go astray. Yes, getting SS involved is going to be stressful for the family, and I wouldn't say it if it was just for 5 minutes and the child wasn't distressed. It's the fact that it's 15 minutes and the child is hysterically sobbing that goes over the borderline into abuse for me. That child is obviously desperate. They may or may not do anything and it's unlikely that you will ever ever know the outcome, but as other pp's have said, if there's other shit going on, it may add weight to a sketchy picture.

@MyNameIsIrrelevant

I’ve already addressed the door being locked, and mother pottering around up thread.

Have you decided what to do yet OP? I know you're receiving divided opinions here.........

I wouldn’t do this. And especially how distraught you are saying she gets. Sounds like it’s damaging.

I’d ring ss

OP, how many steps are there? I think this is important... Whether it is a couple of steps down into the garden or an actual flight of stairs?

I’m a CP social worker. I believe that child protection is everyone’s business but I do not think what the OP witnesses would be considered CP.

However, the incidents witnessed by @newmumatschool are abusive and should be reported to SS. The cultural issue is irrelevant and consideration given to this was a factor in the death of Victoria Climbie.

Incidentally, I would not bother with the NSPCC. They simply pass the information onto SS, often not asking the right questions to obtain an accurate picture, IMHO.