AIBU to think some people become even more flaky and selfish after they have kids?

[Hey1256]

Ok so here’s the story, I’ve now lost a few friends over the years because prior to their pregnancies the friendship was mainly one way to start with. I would always instigate meet ups, I would always be the one to travel to see them because a half hour journey to most of my friends seems to be the other side of the world.

After their babies arrived I don’t hear from them, they cancel meets and NEVER want to travel anywhere.

Now, please don’t misunderstand what I’m trying to say - I totally get that when you have a child it is the priority and things become more difficult. But does it really mean you don’t care about anyone else enough to see how their life is going or want to see them, ever?

Fast forward a few years and quite a few of my other friends are having babies. One has been amazing, so good despite having the baby she has been making what effort she can which proves that you can still remember friends post baby.

The others I have not heard from them since they fell pregnant. If I don’t reach out to them and ask how they are it doesn’t happen.

Why is it that when some people have kids they start thinking people without kids lives are irrelevant? Not worthy of asking how they are? I know these friends keep in contact with their other pregnant friends. They haven’t wanted to initiate meet ups.

Anyway, it’s made me really upset. Do I just have shit friends? Why don’t people value social relationships anymore particularly once they have a child?

I’ve really had enough. Is it time to make new friends?

“I know quite a lot of people who are of the opinion that their nuclear family, their "family time" or even their children's activities trumps absolutely everything else. They are very tedious. I have DC so this is not bitterness or comparing childless life with life with children. It's as if the rest of the world is simply unimportant to them now and they've become very insular and rather boring.”

It’s not this way for many of us and various people on here have tried to explain.

FWIW, I DO now have time for my friends and send and answer texts and stuff. I just couldn’t find the headspace for months at a time in previous years. It passes. Nobody’s obliged to wait for a friendship on these grounds though, and I wouldn’t blame anyone who didn’t. Just trying to shed some light. It is really NOT about not caring, or thinking the world revolves around children and family. It’s a just a life stage.

It’s not a case of sour grapes although that’s a common response I get

Ah. No I don’t think it’s sour grapes (although your posting style might suggest that somewhat)

Clearly you not really knowing your own mind affected you and I applaud you acknowledging that.

A lot of women have said they wish people had been honest and told them the truth and they would have reconsidered. This is what I advocate. It’s not a case of sour grapes although that’s a common response I get.

I totally agree with this. I think people
Are assuming I don't see the difficulties with parenthood. I have a sibling that is the biggest martyr to motherhood - I DO get it.

I think what's frustrating is that some of my friends didn't and they'd laugh at me for saying I'm not sure about kids as it's so difficult, they'd say I'm being silly and 'overthinking it'.

Now they seem to get it and perhaps why the friendships are struggling.

Even though I understand the demands of parenting, I still think it's possible to have some kind of social life with a kid. My partner has kids to new born babies who are not being breastfeed and their relationships have changed somewhat but he still sees them couple of times a month.

Is it because they're men?

Is it because their hormones are not affected in the same way?

Genuinely curious, do men have parenthood easier than women (assuming the man hasn't abandoned the family)?

That's was supposed to say my partner has friends who has kids!

I think friendships can ebb and flow but usually survive if both people give and it's not just one giving while another takes.

When i became a mum (first of us), i did have different priorities and wants and a couple of friends weren't interested. From ones POV, i was no longer fun as i didn't want to go clubbing and drinking every saturday, i was trying to breastfeed and heal from the birth. She was unwilling to accept that for a time i couldnt do those things, meals and coffees yes, clubbing no not until my newborn was older. My other friends and i still remain close, for a time we just did meals and coffees and they were happy to as it meant we still caught up.

Another friend i found was disinterested in my child (fair enough) but expected me to be interested in her constant on off unhealthy relationship. I got tired of feeling like a prop and everything being one way. Her POV would be i changed and became one of those mums, and i did change as i no longer could text 6 times a day nor had the energy for hour long conversations of her talking at me.

It doesn't take much to text how are you. If you are constantly giving and not getting back then it's very shit. So long as you aren't waiting for them to text you when easily either of you could text thd other

My other friends and i still remain close, for a time we just did meals and coffees and they were happy to as it meant we still caught up.

This still seems to be impossible with a lot of them.

I am not into clubbing I like daytime afternoon meals and coffee but still mission impossible a lot of the time

"Friends" covers a large range of relationships. Many "friends" are not much more than regular aquaintences such as colleagues that you might chat with or have the occasional social with, but there's not much social glue there. A lot of friends are "lifestyle friends", your clubbing friends from university, a social club, an NCT group. If the lifestyle changes out of sync, again, there's not much social glue to hold the friendship together. They're probably the friends that you see most of, and the friendship thrives on a shared common stage/ activity and lots of contact. The special type is the "soul friend". The one that survives low contact, but you get in touch and distance and time melt away. You can be at totally different points of life, but there is that connection of personality that remains unchanged.

It's easy to overestimate the depth of a lifestyle friendship until the goalposts are changed by something like a baby. Frienship should be mutual anyway. I've let friendships slide after realising they are all one way, and they've fizzled after ceasing to provide all the effort. I still like the people and see them when others invite them along but I was tired of all the initiating.

Deep friendships will survive the social bomb of a young family.

By necessity, young children consume a lot of physical and mental energy. My dad worked himself to death. His company replaced him shortly afterwards. Jobs and employees are replacable. Children/ parents are not. It's a role that you pretty much can't walk away from and certainly not without consequence. It is understandable that parents prioritise their babies/ children. Depending on the personalities and needs involved, there may not be much spare time and physical or mental energy left over.

Children or any other lifestyle/ health changes will expose the quality of a friendship. If someone took effort with little reward and reliabilty anyway it doesn't take much change in the dynamic to show that up. The real soul friends will still be there in the background.

I get your sadness, I miss my friends from before I had children and cherish anytime i get to spend with them. However motherhood can be all consuming.

There is a huge difference in how much it will change you.

If you have a baby with an easy temperament who will happy be looked after by others, sleeps through the night early etc chances are good that you will get some breaks to socialise. If you have grandparents/ family nearby who are willing and able to help out that's great too.

I had a baby who breastfed and woke every 45mins day and night for months. No family support and DH working long hours. My baby screamed with anyone else holding her and would only sleep on/next to me. I still managed to see friends but it was hard. Add in return to work and household stuff and there was no time left anymore. My child woke at 4am for years so bedtime was 9pm. I got in from work at 6pm, bedtime took 1 hour, dinner took one hour and cleaning/ housework took me until bedtime. I also had to take my baby to everything e.g smear tests, had minor surgery with her next to me. I just didn't have childcare.

Although I knew it would be hard having children it wasn't until I was physically exhausted/ sleep deprived and unable to string a sentence together I was so tired that I appreciated what a sacarfice it is.

Daytime afternoon meals. That might clash with nap time? Which would be their chance to attack the tsunami of washing, wash the crusted over breakfast dishes or renew the house insurance. All things that are bloody impossible when young kids are awake. And if your friend is having an afternoon meal out, they’ll know that these tasks just get pushed into the evening and they’ll still be tumble drying at 11pm, in the knowledge that they’ll be dragged from their bed at 5am the next morning by a crying child bashing against the side of the cot.

Sometimes it might not seem worth it to them, the trade off for the next 24 hours. For a parent, time and sleep are like commodities you can buy and sell. But I don’t think any of this is personal. You sound a bit irritated that they’re not trying as hard to meet up as you think they should be, but perhaps it’s just too hard for some of them to juggle you as well?

Oh and in 90% of my friends relationships the man's life changes far less drastically than the woman's due to maternity leave, pregnancy, childcare once returning to work.

Me and dh both had professional jobs and split housework. Both quite independent. Im.left 'holding the baby' far more as they have thier primary attachment with me. You then sort of slip into 'default parent'. I swore that wouldn't happen but it gets much harder to keep equality post babies

Even though I understand the demands of parenting

The thing is you don't. I thought I did. I was was a reluctant, realistic, late mother. I was you until my late-30s. I didn't understand. There is no way anyone can understand without living it. That isn't an insult, although so many people seem to think it is.

And babies aren't all the same. My mum friend during the early years with DD had a quiet, sweet, docile child. She could make coffee dates. Mine was like a wall-of-death bike and I couldn't. Unless I wanted all the perfect-non-parents to judge me. And give me helpful fucking tips.

It happens to a lot of us. You might find you do it yourself if you have a child. It hurts like hell, but ultimately I don't want to be friends with someone who can't be arsed to make an effort with me. Life is way too short. And I'm too busy and, shock horror, too exhausted.

Genuinely curious, do men have parenthood easier than women?

In my experience? Yes.

The women who do manage to keep up a semblance of true social independence generally have a third (usually close trusted and importantly willing) person happy to step in. It’s interesting that you say the partners manage nights out; do you know how often they go out with their OH’s?

I would happily bet that for 90% of the men you’re talking about leave a woman at home resenting the fact that she doesn’t get to go out and her social life has died a death never mind the social side of the relationship with her OH whilst she has to pat them on the back for doing bath-time.

Obviously only my experience but my partner dodged enough that looking back I didn’t actually trust him with dd. He was very quick to hand her back to me when things got hairy. He’d regale you with tales of how hard it all was when from my point of view it was all very different. I almost bit my own tongue off when one of his friends commented on how his regular nights out hadn’t been affected.

What @mrsterrypratchett said.

You cannot understand how hard the first 2 years are until you've lived it. I'm not trying to be condescending just brutally honest!

DH and I talk about that time as barely surviving day by day until DD started to talk and walk when things started to get easier.

Until then, everything is 5 times harder and if you do get the time to yourself, all you want to do is sleep. Alcohol doesn't appeal because dealing with a baby with a hangover is a non starter, and going out after work, means not seeing your child that day as they've been in nursery.

Thats why your friends are a bit shit. Be that friend who goes over to theirs, offers to look after the baby so they can have a bath, or a sleep and then they'll give you back their time when they are able to.

You cannot understand how hard the first 2 years are until you've lived it. I'm not trying to be condescending just brutally honest!

I totally agree - I don't think anyone can compare life experiences about anything until they've lived in that persons shoes.

But irrespective of what's happening in my life I always have time for my friends.

Perhaps they add more to my life than I do to theirs.

Is it because they're men?

Is it because their hormones are not affected in the same way?

Genuinely curious, do men have parenthood easier than women (assuming the man hasn't abandoned the family)?

Yes, massively so. Surely that isn't news to you?

Admittedly I EBF most of mine, but even the best, most involved father in the world can't give birth, can't breastfeed, isn't the one whose smell and voice soothes the baby. They don't have the intense hormonal attunement of a mother and tiny baby (which is heightened if you BF). And in most cases they go back to work within a few weeks, so biological and social factors combine to make the woman the default parent.

DH does his share of the childcare and probably does more than me around the house... Now. When our first was a tiny baby he was overwhelmed, as was I. But unlike me he didn't have the incredible soother that was boobs, and he did have someone to pass the buck to, i.e. me. So he didn't get his sea-legs as a dad until considerably later, and even now it's easier for him to go out because it's not him the DC look for at bedtime. The cultural standard for being a good dad is also hilariously low; hold down a job plus change a nappy and maybe play peekaboo once a week, and pretty much everybody will be willing to canonise a man and arrange his instant induction into the Dad Hall of Fame.

Yes, massively so. Surely that isn't news to you?

It actually is. I expect it to be the case majority if the time but it is in ALL cases.

I've never met a genuine 50/50 parenting setup. Ever,

Even when the woman earns more money than the guy. I understand for the first few months the mother will be the main parent, obviously with recovery from birth etc but can't see why 50/50 cannot resume if both people earn the same money or the woman earns more than the guy.

It's very sad. I don't mean this in a patronising way. I myself will probably fall victim to it eventually.

I guess this topic is one for another thread

@Treacletoots You cannot understand how hard the first 2 years are until you've lived it. I'm not trying to be condescending just brutally honest!

I think if people truly understood how hard it is many would skip having children altogether. I’m not having children because I know I wouldn’t be able to cope with it.

It's a rarity and I don't really want a friendship circle of twenty somethings when I'm in my forties and fifties.

I'm in my late forties And don't have children. I got ostracised so much by friends when they got pregnant (it was even worse when my husband died) that I decided, for self preservation, to back away after the pregnancy announcement and stop making an effort. I lost a lot of friends, but they weren't really friends to me.

Now my friendship group is a mixture of parents and non parents who I've mostly met in the last decade. I have some close friendships that are equal, with people who treat me as a normal human being and not a freak or a curse. They are aLso a mixture of ages and sex but we get along and have fun.

I think that even taking away the concept of parenthood, we change a lot as people between the ages of 25 to 45. The friends I have now reflect the person I am now and that's really good and I know we're stuck with each other for life.

I do find it annoying and patronising when parents say that childless people only want to talk about clothes and men. It's kind of like childfree people saying parents can only talk about feeding and poo.

I always have time for my friends

You are sounding even less like you have a clue what parenting young children involves. You’re friends probably hold a celebration if they get to have a wee in peace. Putting the bins out feels like a transatlantic mission. You are just adding to the constant never ending stream of demands on your friends time, queueing up asking What about me? You are not being prioritised because they are not required to meet your basic needs in the same way that they are responsible for their children.

@Hey1256 as an experiment, let’s pretend you have no free time at all between now and Christmas. Literally nothing, you’re going to go to work and go home to bed, that’s it.

You get three hours off at the end of November. Who do you spend that time with? By yourself, with your DH/P or your friends?

people are assuming I don't see the difficulties with parenthood. I have a sibling that is the biggest martyr to motherhood - I DO get it.

In the kindest way; I had a martyr sibling parent too, and I thought I got it too. Until I had my own, then I realised I had no idea.

These friendships sound quite surface. You say they were one sided even before the children? I struggle to see my closest friends with any kind of regularity, whether they have kids or not. I often forget to respond to texts for days. I can't keep the same amount of information in my head as I used to. I blank birthdays until I see them later on facebook or group messages. I cancel plans with little notice. None of it on purpose, all of it makes me feel a bit shit. But I'm not wonder woman, and sometimes something has to give. It can't be work, the baby, the husband, the house or immediate family events (for me anyway). So social stuff is what gives. And my gym membership.

I'm sorry you are feeling shit about it though and I don't blame you. I would be the same in other shoes tbh.

I've never met a genuine 50/50 parenting setup. Ever

How would you know one if you saw it, though? Every task divided down the middle, 50:50? That usually isn't practical; in most cases, one person needs to take the lead in an area with the other as a support, because otherwise you simply both end up carrying the mental load and it's more work. Also, here's the thing, small children are fascists. They don't give a single shiny shit that mummy and daddy want to have a modern egalitarian arrangement where they each do 50:50 of every parenting task. They want the parent they have their primary attachment to, and they want them now.

I would say DH and I have a 50:50 arrangement, overall. But I am still the default parent. To compensate, he is the default in numerous other areas of life, including cooking, meal planning, laundry, life admin. And we split the stuff that really matters: leisure time, days off due to kids sickness. Etc.

I don't mean that in a condescending way at all, and I would apply the same logic to almost anything. I have a close friend who is a doctor, but hearing stories about her life or seeing her brain dead after a week of nights doesn't mean I have the first clue what it's really like. Same way I have no idea about being a nurse, or an accountant, or being vegan or living on benefits or any other lifestyle. You know some facts and some of the issues, but you have no idea how your entire life is affected unless you are actually living it.

*@Hey1256 as an experiment, let’s pretend you have no free time at all between now and Christmas. Literally nothing, you’re going to go to work and go home to bed, that’s it.

You get three hours off at the end of November. Who do you spend that time with? By yourself, with your DH/P or your friends?*

Not every parent has no free time. The friend that seems to balance everything really well manages to go to the gym.

She also has a childfree day one of the days the kid is in nursery to have some me time and feel like herself again.

She also still manages to work.

I'm not saying everyone has the finances and support to do this but my point is your description of motherhood is not the same for everyone.

And still drops me a text and meets for coffee from time to time.

Maybe she's wonder woman lol