AIBU to think some people become even more flaky and selfish after they have kids?

[Hey1256]

Ok so here’s the story, I’ve now lost a few friends over the years because prior to their pregnancies the friendship was mainly one way to start with. I would always instigate meet ups, I would always be the one to travel to see them because a half hour journey to most of my friends seems to be the other side of the world.

After their babies arrived I don’t hear from them, they cancel meets and NEVER want to travel anywhere.

Now, please don’t misunderstand what I’m trying to say - I totally get that when you have a child it is the priority and things become more difficult. But does it really mean you don’t care about anyone else enough to see how their life is going or want to see them, ever?

Fast forward a few years and quite a few of my other friends are having babies. One has been amazing, so good despite having the baby she has been making what effort she can which proves that you can still remember friends post baby.

The others I have not heard from them since they fell pregnant. If I don’t reach out to them and ask how they are it doesn’t happen.

Why is it that when some people have kids they start thinking people without kids lives are irrelevant? Not worthy of asking how they are? I know these friends keep in contact with their other pregnant friends. They haven’t wanted to initiate meet ups.

Anyway, it’s made me really upset. Do I just have shit friends? Why don’t people value social relationships anymore particularly once they have a child?

I’ve really had enough. Is it time to make new friends?

A modern approach would be 50/50 parenting IMO.

I’m honestly interested to know what you think that would look like in practice.

Employers now so demanding the model that many people fall into is one person going for it at work and the other giving up for a few years while kids small

Yes that's where we ended up too. It didn't feel like much of a choice tbh - I saw the kids for half an hour every night, DH and I kept getting ill, and we were both underperforming at work, and that was in a good week - when any of us got ill the wheels fell off completely. It left me in a position where I'll have to start a new career at a much lower level, I'm never getting back into those jobs again. I feel that I made the right decision but I feel the loss of my career - I had to work quite hard to get out of the sink estate that I grew up in, I was the first kid in the family to go to university etc - and that's it, up the spout. But my kids were sleeping badly, they were hanging onto me when I was there... my DH earned more money than me, far more, because he was older, and because he'd felt more able to take risks in his career while (ironically) I'd tried to be more conservative and get myself in a position where I knew I would be secure in my job to take mat leave. And because I ended up having a long period when I was dealing with recurrent miscarriage where, from a career point of view, I basically trod water.

These are not uncommon problems. Lots of mothers have miscarriages or secondary infertility or babies who are ill or disabled or premature. Lots of families struggle to cope with the demands of jobs and childcare and the cost of living, lots of people look at the situation they have and however they juggle their resources and come up a bit short. Lots of people make hard decisions in order to give their children a decent upbringing, whether that means working more or less or whatever. And to think that you might have a "friend", who would look at you in a situation like that and then start critiquing your "life choices" as if you were talking about picking paint shades out of the fucking Farrow and Ball catalogue... that's not a friend. It's the height of rudeness, devoid of empathy, and deeply misogynist to boot.

Also this is going to sound very insensitive.

But I remember having the shock of my life when I first had the baby.. or even got pregnant.

I had never in my life felt soo invaded.. no more boundaries. Everyone even strangers on the street wanting to tell me how to do things... making me question myself. Constantly drained with having to explain my opinions.

This is going to sound unpopular but I was so devastated that I did some reading and one theory stuck to mind. That it’s part of the “village” raising a child mentality that those who don’t have kids due to their kids growing up or those who haven’t yet had kids (broodiness or filling the void) tend to have quite dominating feelings towards other people’s parenting.. some would express this by doting too much over the baby and some would be all lecturing towards the mothers parenting.

I have experienced the same pattern of behaviour from fellow childfree people.. I tend to take it as a sign that they love my child. It used to serve a purpose in society because the child was getting attention from everyone around especially when vulnerable, but it has become sooo untamed that it’s quite suffocating.. it used to serve a purpose so those in the same commmunity and neighbourhood all contributed to the parenting, and probably their opinions were going to be valid because they experienced raising young kids from early on even if its not their own kids..

But now we live in an individualistic society. People genuinely have no clue about parenting or young kids and just have this intense feeling to be over passionate about the subject. It’s in the hormones I think.

I have not experienced this behaviour from
Fellow mums because we know how suffocating it is. And because we have drained out our desire for brooding with the child that’s making us wait for the day we can be left alone.

But It’s over stepping many boundaries which isn’t something we are used to. but many see it as a good faith for the benefit of the child. Which is also an excuse. It’s all in the hormones.

Reason I raise this issue is that I don’t think either side is to blame. But since this is a phenomena let’s examine it.

I genuinely cut lots of slack to my childfree friends and entertain the conversation when they try to “prove they know better” about my parenting. I see it as their hormones of love towards my child.. and so I can put my feelings of feeling judged and suffocated aside for a little.

But In all honesty, there are many movements where my confidence is already on edge and I don’t want to be having those conversations.

Mothers of kids already know this. They know the boundaries. They know the feeling. They just don’t go there.

@JealousOrFair you have made some valid points.

The topic has most definitely diverted from my original discussion, I tend to do that a lot.

Clearly there are misunderstandings an misrepresentations about motherhood amongst society,

I guess mothers don't need arrogant people like me expressing an opinion either, though I can't help what I think.

The thread has helped me find peace in pulling back from current friendships without any guilt.

I find it difficult to be able to make new friends. Despite being a very sociable person I find people I meet are flaky so meet ups never happen particularly with new friendships.

Hey

It’s really your choice whether to pull back or get to the bottom of it all.

I’ve been a mother for only 2 years (almost) and adding pregnancy to that. Fertility issues before that.

My fertility issues made me so empathetic that I went out of my way to keep up with friendships with those who like me struggle with the idea that they might not have kids. I didn’t wanna be that person..

I put my emotional and physical needs aside..

And only recently I cracked.. I abandoned one person who wasn’t really a friend but became soo obsessed with me because the rest of the group got busy with their lives and she was feeling so lonely.. but the obsession was soooo bad towards my child she was constantly bickering at me that I’m not letting her see him, wanting to come every week. I sympathised but I think her issue was excessive broodiness and she was definately sidelining me and being condescending about my parenting. I excused her but I felt unable to be there for her and the interaction wasn’t healthy. I wasn’t that close to that girl anyway but she became closer to me because she felt cut off from everyone else.. but I just couldn’t do it anymore..

I wanted to enjoy the company and feel whole again but it all became about one-upping my parenting choices to make herself feel better.

The second friend I was semi close to, but again because I’m the only one from the circle of friends who made an effort... I genuinely liked her and liked our discussions but she was feeling so lonely that she fixated on me and my kids and was making rediculous demands of my time
And attention and wouldn’t understand that I am drained.. I still miss her but I feel fatigued by that friendship and took a break.

I had not changed my friendship with many many childfree friends.. most of them just became uninterested in my timings..

I don’t even meet up with old friends who have kids that much...

The “antenatal girls” or neighbourhood mums are most convenient because it’s all about the kids. I hardly like the mums or know them, but I do enjoy the fact my child hasn’t someone to play with while I can zone out and know the other mum will have her eye on the kids too..

In all honesty, I like my original friends a lot more. Miss them so much.. miss who I used to be around them... more than I like any of the mum friends I hang out with in fact sometimes I force myself to meet up for the kids sake..

But I do enjoy it.. because owe have same things on our minds. Kids, nap time, dinner, plans for the week, which nursery, which school.. all those boring stuff that I hate thinking about unless someone makes a conversation out of it.

@jellycatspyjamas

Wasn't my intention to be narrow-minded or disrespectful at all. My comment was aimed at some previous posters who strongly implied that the sacrifices are all on the mother's side because "that's the way things are". One said explicitly that the "change of identity" is "optional for men but not for women".

You said:

" there are still times I need to pull back, focus on what’s happening at home, there are still times I need to be off work with a sick child or cancel plans with friends. As does he"

That's completely reasonable and exactly how I would envisage it. I am more than understanding of my friends with children when they do the same, and I really try hard to be the more flexible person because I have fewer commitments. My problem is with the "friends" who have no time at all for their childless friends after having children and attribute this to "part of being a woman", while their male partners continue as normal. One friend of mine shrugged this off when I asked her with "That's just the way men are". I just find that idea quite scary and can't really make sense of why it should be this way in an equal society. If there were more men saying to my DH "Yeah sorry, no time for the pub tonight - I just find it easier to socialise with my daddy friends", that would be much easier to accept, although still sad for the childless friends affected. It's not as easy to find a whole new friendship group in your 30s.

The implication seems to be that parenthood feels different for women than it does for men, and that's what scares me. I have total faith in my DH as an equal partner (we have always been very much 50/50) and I'm lucky enough to live in a country where shared parental leave is the norm and men going part-time and doing drop-offs/pick-ups anything special, but I worry about this "change in identity" that would (inevitably, some would claim) mean that everything I used to consider important suddenly went out the window.

That's completely reasonable and exactly how I would envisage it. I am more than understanding of my friends with children when they do the same, and I really try hard to be the more flexible person because I have fewer commitments. My problem is with the "friends" who have no time at all for their childless friends after having children and attribute this to "part of being a woman", while their male partners continue as norm

Exactly this. But as we don't have children it would be 'arrogant' to make such a statement as we have no idea what parenting is like therefore couldn't possibly comment.

Well hey feel free to take my words out of context.

My problem is with the "friends" who have no time at all for their childless friends after having children and attribute this to "part of being a woman", while their male partners continue as norm

I don’t think either partner gets to continue as norm, unless the relationship is pretty dysfunctional and in our family I tend to see much more of my friends, am more likely to go away for the weekend etc. It was like that before we had kids and continues to be the case afterwards.

In saying that, my identity has changed in a way my husband’s hasn’t - my career choices have changed, his has stayed the same, my friendships are different. His have stayed the same. He doesn’t socialise with “daddy friends” as such while I do have friends who are the mums of my kids friends. That isn’t about our respective roles so much as our personalities - I’ve always been pretty driven in my career and still am, I’ve always had a varied circle of friends, most of his friends are folk we socialise with as a couple etc etc. I think it’s easy to ascribe every change or decision to traditional family roles when most people make decisions that suit them and their circumstances best.

You might have kids and have a complete change in identity, you might not - it’s far from inevitable but you (and your partner) will change because you can’t introduce a tiny person into a couple relationship and those people not be changed by that. What that change looks like and how it manifests itself in your relationship and your friendships is the part you have some control over.

It’s hard, I’ve been on both sides of the motherhood fence and both has it’s challenges but I can see how childless woman can end up feeling marginalised despite best intentions.

I can see how childless woman can end up feeling marginalised despite best intentions.

I agree and I can see how it’s very unfair.

This thread had been an eye opener for me. It’s full of raw feelings on both sides. I genuinely can’t comment on the single friendship that the OP was talking about but I’m commenting more on the generic phenomena of some women feeling marginalized due to their childfree status.

Which I don’t think -in general- either side is actively trying to do. I think the dynamic becomes a bit complicated because of misunderstandings from both sides.

I was a bit self absorbed the past month or so and alienated two girls who we’re puttjng effort with me. I was feeling disrespected by them over stepping my boundaries and dismissing my struggles as a mother,

Clearly I now see I was wrong and wants seeing their perspective. That they believed they were making positive effort to make the friendship work and were perhaps just unable to seem my struggles. And obviously they have their struggles too because of this whole loneliness of having friendships dropped off. Feeling rejected is horrible.

I do feel like a shit friend after this thread. I’m sure while I was assuming im excusing a lot of needy behaviour that they thought they were excusing my neglectful behaviour too.

It’s a matter of perspective and friendships should be able to adjust based on the circumstances if it was built on strong foundations.

I would say to challenge your perspective, if this is a recurring thing.. and give things a chance from a new angle.

I was suffocated by the intensity of the friendship and that they wanted to feel involved in my personal life, when in honest truth we weren’t besties and only became friends because I had time as a mother on maternity leave and she was feeling lonely to be cut off from her friends.

I asked her why she was placing so much expectations on the friendship?? And I don’t think I was able to empathize because to me it appeared she had the freedom to enjoy her life whatever way she wanted and I hadn’t realised how hurtful it is to feel left behind by friends. She perhaps became too attached to me because of my loyalty to the friendship but I was in desperate need for space and understanding which she wasn’t in need of and on the contrary she was having too much off to her dislike.

I’m certainly going to have a bit more empathy after this thread as I realise I was judging things from my experience and perspective. But I hope OP can do that too.,

For the sake of her friendships. It’s resllt not worth losing all your friends. It helps you stay in touch with your identity when circumstances try to take that away from u

shoesandwine only female people can gestate a child, only a biological mother can breastfeed.

It's the woman, therefore, who is massively more impacted for around two years per child - because of human biology.

Pregnancy and childbirth have absolutely cataclysmic impacts on many women physically. Breastfeeding too, to a varying extent.

You might want to believe this can be shared 50/50, but it is simply not a physical possibility.

If a couple want and manage to have 3 children and have them singly, that's six years of a woman's life which absolutely is far more intimately, completely, and centrally impacted than that of her non gestating coparent, (even if they are a lesbian couple and only one can carry a pregnancy this would be the case, because of the biology of human reproduction, not because of gender roles).

If you've carried, birthed and breastfed a child you are highly likely to find being apart from that child while they are still tiny and wholey dependent for absolutely everything harder than even a very involved coparent at first. The bond is initially physical and biological.

Obviously as the baby grows into a small child parenting can become 50/50, but it's often the case that pregnancies, losses, breastfeeding, maternity leave impact on a mother's career more than a father's, especially where parents don't wish to have an only child.

Mothers are treated very differently to father's in many workplaces - father leaves early to pick his child up and gets a standing ovation, father of the year award and even mildly flirty comments about being the sort of man every woman wants to have children with. Woman leaves early to pick up her child - gets rolled eyes and snide comments about her crotch droppings not being her colleagues problem and how she's setting equality back and making women look bad. Who is overlooked for promotion due to divided loyalties... Super dad or flakey mum? Despite identical behaviour...

Comments about 50/50 parenting of babies can sound quite naive tbh. IMO it's an aim once children are 2 or 3+ but unrealistic before that.

Ideally IMO both parents would work part time - both parents working long full time hours is unavoidable for some couples but really, really not ideal at all for small (or arguably any) children.

If a couple aim for 50/50 parenting that's great but seriously difficult and requires both parents' employers to be exemplary. Worth getting set up before even TTC...

How many couples could really both go down to part time with consequent reduced income and reduced long term career progression?

@JealousOrFair it's been a real eye opener for me too and has made me more emotional then I thought.

You're right about raw emotions, there are a lot from me anyway and I don't think there's really any amicable solution I think it just depends on each friendship individually.

I do feel completely marginalised as a childfree 34 year old woman though. It was part of my reason for deciding to start a family soon. Rightly or wrongly but I want my own safe haven family to ride through the storms with, though I appreciate my kids might not be there and do their own thing one day and that's fine but I still want the experience.

An earlier poster said this thread is the best contraceptive there is and I actually feel it's the total opposite. Being childless feels like you're second best to everyone and everything except other childless people who in my circles are becoming on existent and meeting close friends at 34 just seems near impossible, I've tried but funnily enough keep meeting people with kids!

I asked someone out for a meet recently hoping to strike a new friendship and she said she has to get back to the kids (after an hour of running errands) and I've heard nothing since, one example of many attempts at reaching out with rejection.

Looks like it's my, my partner and I until I jump on board this motherhood train

@JealousOrFair I'm also feeling a bit guilty as I have a friend who is an older lady who is childless and I've kind of been dodging her for a little while? Before I had my son she was only really a friend of a friend but was dead keen when he arrived. I had a couple of visits from her after he was born but found her a bit intense because we didn't really have much of a friendship before anyway and she was sort of kissing and cuddling my son intensely which I find a bit odd when it's not a family member? Anyway she since kept trying to pursue a meet up but I felt like she was being quite broody over my son who was increasingly less keen on being fondled and grabbed! I do feel bad that I think she's quite lonely but it definitely was a bit one sided.

@JealousOrFair thank you. That means a lot. Sometimes the childless woman is just trying to make conversation and be interested and not meaning to overstep boundaries. Sometimes it's just misunderstanding on both sides. We all have times when we are feeling lonely and needy, other times when we are able to support our friends. A bit more understanding would mean a fewer lonely people.

I've had completely the opposite experience. Out of my close group of friends from school (we're 31 now! Only three have made an effort, all of the ones who already have children.

The others seem to think that my life hasn't changed at all and that I should be able to leave my 10 month old whenever and wherever to accommodate our normal things. I would have had no issue driving an hour for a coffee as you say pre baby. But I have a reflux baby who screams her head off after 10 mins in the car, so it isn't possible now without distressing my baby and being incredibly stressed myself.

The 'why can't they leave the baby' comments really upset me too. Maybe they can leave their baby, but maybe they don't want to? Or aren't ready to?

Sorry - all my rage is coming out! Not meant at you OP.

All the best with ttc and I hope you make a good group of friends who can support you through such a big change. I've found my NCT group invaluable.