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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To have lost all respect for Leave voters?

219 replies

KennDodd · 04/09/2019 16:34

It's their fault we're in this mess and I can only see it getting worse.

OP posts:
familycourtq · 05/09/2019 08:58

@Gone2far - great analysis and I agree 100%

CatherineOfAragonsPrayerBook · 05/09/2019 09:05

So, anyway, I much more respect for none voters that those who tottered off to the polling station to vote to overturn the status quo without a fucking clue what any of it meant.

^^This. My mother refused precisely because of this. She said she didn't understand any of it and couldn't in good conscience vote on something she didn't understand.

However, I have met people for whom upon mentioning NI border or CU clearly have (still) no understanding of any of it and had even less understanding of the EU then than they do now, but none-the-less trotted off to vote for a change in the status quo. Some leavers I know did it out of a sense of rebellion against the established order and did it with their friends almost as a fun activity. I met a young girl in hospital who told me she voted out and so did her friends from college but admitted neither she nor they realised the EU gave her the right to work live and travel in 27 different countries until the day after the vote.

Accountant222 · 05/09/2019 09:39

Give it a rest, we are, where we are. Pontificating isn't going to change anything

Jillyhilly · 05/09/2019 09:55

Leavers can be quite painful, but there’s fault on both sides. I voted Remain, but Leavers I’ve spoken to are quite an interesting crowd and generally have quite a variety of views on why they voted leave. Remainers on the other hand seem much more prone to dreary indoctrinated group-think and I’ve found it harder and harder to associate myself with them. The latest, already mentioned on this thread, is everyone suddenly agreeing how terrible it is that Nicholas Soames has been treated so badly by Boris because he’s the grandson of Winston Churchill. I mean so bloody what?! As if any of them really give a toss about Nicholas bloody Soames! It’s just something someone says and then they all start repeating and believing it.

In my opinion Remainers , despite banging on about their superior education and understanding, also massively lack empathy or a genuine desire to understand the other side. It doesn’t help to decry people who voted Leave as racist. If you’re really that intellectually curious and wonderful, why don’t you try to find out what might give rise to so-called “racist” thinking? James O’Brien is the absolute posterboy for this way of thinking. I thought he was fantastic when I first started listening to him after the Referendum, but his belligerence, point-scoring and total scorn for ordinary people who don’t agree with him now turns my stomach. He is just as divisive as someone like Farage.

I just wish we could talk about what this is really about - 2 different visions of what it means to be British, different but not necessarily worse or better - and discuss our ideas about the future of Britain without each side constantly trying to convince the other that they are “right”. But no one seems interested in doing that. And so on and on we go with the same old discussions.

Notagreatstart1234 · 05/09/2019 10:05

I know a few lovely people who voted Leave for various reasons (mostly protest votes against austerity). They meant well and they have my respect, although some of them were pretty disgusted with themselves the day after when they saw the result of the vote, which they hadn't foreseen or intended.

Any Leave voter who sees the complete clusterfuck we have now - Johnson acting like a dictator, the rise of the far right, the persecution of decent moderates in the Tory party solely for acting in accordance with their consciences, our pathetic grovelling to that madman Trump, our undoubted loss of respect internationally, the possible break-up of the Union, the rise in racism as reported time and again by ordinary people, the likely consequences of no deal as warned by everyone including the government's own sources and, worst of all, the terror that many of my Irish friends feel at the prospect of renewed violence over the border issue - and says "yes, that's what I wanted and I don't care what happens as long as I get my own way"? Yeah, they don't deserve my respect.

ScreamingLadySutch · 05/09/2019 10:12

Well said, @Jillyhilly. To the people in the Mumsnet bubble:

'For a long time, now, the British centre-Left has claimed the moral monopoly on all things. It is clearly visible — one need only look at how its perspective on issues like climate change, multiculturalism or gender-based causes are pushed, incessantly, on the airwaves, in classrooms and in print, as gospel truth. Any deviation from it is viciously attacked, with accusations of fascism, bigotry and chauvinism more frequent than suggestions those who question this orthodoxy may be simply mistaken. Proponents claim that their views are “common sense” or based on rationality. The inference, then, is that those who disagree are more than just incorrect: They are morally contemptible and incapable of rationality.

The thing is, though, most of the public does not obey the line on this. Their voting patterns certainly don’t suggest they do. And, if Brexit is anything to go by, they are tired of being told they are backwards and wicked for not sharing the same views as a Guardian editorial.

You can tell why there was so much anger at the suggestion the Tories were asking members of the public for their thoughts on cultural issues — for many on the left, it is heresy to question their values, and dangerous to ask ordinary people who, unenlightened provincials that they are, cannot be trusted to think the right way. ' - Benedict Spence

yellowallpaper · 05/09/2019 10:22

I think there are bigots on both sides. OP with her sweeping negative generalisations, being one of them.

I would say the same if a leaver had made the same derogatory comment

NotQuiteUsual · 05/09/2019 10:27

People who voted leave voted for what they felt was right. I don't agree with them, but I totally respect their decisions. The politicians who have turned this entire thing into a massive shit show are the ones I blame. They've put their personal interests ahead the country's and that is unforgivable.

ChardonnaysDistantCousin · 05/09/2019 10:27

YABU to have had any respect for them to start with.

user1493759849 · 05/09/2019 10:31

@KennDodd YABU. This whole shit show is the fault of the remainers, and the remainers ONLY. Trying to derail Brexit for 3 and a half fucking years so far!

Can't wait to leave the EU. Shut up the moany remainers.

HiJenny35 · 05/09/2019 10:39

What a stupid argument to the same extent you could blame remainders for not voting leave which would have given a much bigger majority giving politicians a much clearer route and bargaining position within the EU.
People had every right to vote whichever way they wanted.

Breathlessness · 05/09/2019 10:42

‘This whole shit show is the fault of the remainers, and the remainers ONLY.’

What about the Brexit supporting MPs who wouldn’t sign off on Theresa May’s deal to leave the EU? Never let facts get in the way of things.

here

LaurieMarlow · 05/09/2019 10:51

This whole shit show is the fault of the remainers, and the remainers ONLY. Trying to derail Brexit for 3 and a half fucking years so far!

Brexiteers, perennially unable to take responsibility for their own actions. Bunch of fucking children.

The ERG have done far more to thwart brexit than any remainer.

ReanimatedSGB · 05/09/2019 11:41

No, I have no respect for people who whine on about too much immigration, because they are stupid as well as mean-minded. People who talk about the English being the greatest nation in the world are also stupid and mean-minded. And there is nothing more fragile than the ego of a right-winger, particularly a white male one: deep down these people know that they are inadequate, not very clever, not very brave - and the only thing they have to cling onto is this idea that white men are inherently superior to other people, and all these awful lefties, women and minorities who Don't Know Their Place, are trying to take away the privileges of white men.
So they seek chaos, and run after psychotic, wealthy white men who promise them their rightful rewards... but the thing is, these tragic little people will still be bottom of the heap, because they are born losers. All bigots are born losers, unable to accept that they are just not clever, appealing or powerful enough to be King Of Everything, and blaming their own failure on other people.

Just like all the numpties who voted Leave and are still bleating to Leave because they think it will make their lives better, and that the spoilt, vicious public schoolboys pretending to be Men Of The People actually care about them. Farage, Rees Mogg, Banks and Johnson don't care at all. They might need a handful of thickos to clean their shoes or whatever, but they won't be bothered to assess whether you were 'loyal' or not when it comes to food rationing, sanctions, deportations and the rest of it.

CatherineOfAragonsPrayerBook · 05/09/2019 11:44

For a long time, now, the British centre-Left has claimed the moral monopoly on all things. It is clearly visible — one need only look at how its perspective on issues like climate change, multiculturalism or gender-based causes are pushed, incessantly, on the airwaves, in classrooms and in print, as gospel truth. Any deviation from it is viciously attacked, with accusations of fascism, bigotry and chauvinism more frequent than suggestions those who question this orthodoxy may be simply mistaken. Proponents claim that their views are “common sense” or based on rationality. The inference, then, is that those who disagree are more than just incorrect: They are morally contemptible and incapable of rationality.

The thing is, though, most of the public does not obey the line on this. Their voting patterns certainly don’t suggest they do. And, if Brexit is anything to go by, they are tired of being told they are backwards and wicked for not sharing the same views as a Guardian editorial.

I think this is ridiculously simplistic and part of the problem. Voting remain or leave is not and should not be about whether you sympathise with left ideals or or not. It should be a clear assessment of the facts!! This increasing political tribalism is why people could not get to the facts about the benefits and cons of EU membership before the referendum. All arguments were filtered through these two supposedly dichotomous world views.

It has become popular (especially in America) to partition all issues into either a left box or right box....believe in Climate change...left. Anti-abortion?....Right. When the reality is that most people crossover on all issues. I consider myself more a centrist as do many. I hate excessive identity politics etc, whilst being smart enough to realise that doesn't mean some people aren't more privileged than others or that society isn't structured to help those who already have the most. It means I realise some of the things said against Trump are bullshit, whilst realising that there are definately things to be concerned about. That the argument for the Environment can be naive and preachy, whilst realising we do have to change things. Moderation.

I understand the disenfranchishment of many in this country leading up to Brexit, I am dirt poor. But that doesn't excuse ignorance or being led by the nose by people with their own agendas. NF actually said on his radio program that if we crash out without a deal 'there will just be a few bumps in the road for a few months' now choosing to believe that makes you deservedly subject to doubts about your intelligence. Yet many phoning in did. Similarly believing the world will stop and everything will be a disaster is a tad overly dramatic.

The case for Brexit: from an objective point of view I've seen little except faith to recommend it. It usually boils down to having belief in ourselves and prophechies about trade deals that will definately emerge. The thing is I do believe in ourselves but we've never effected any policy on such religious terms before have we?

The 1 positive I see is maybe a reduction in cheap labour resulting in better job prospects for UK citizens because lets face it, the average WC person works for benefits these days which is DISGRACEFUL.

People also seem unwilling to hold the press accountable in this mess both for years leading up to the referendum...all the anti EU stories as well as the chronic failure to hold our representatives to account for decisions which have reduced the living standards of many lower MC and WC people.

Now what sickens me is having orchestrated this mess and this political polarisation on both sides of the Atlantic (intentionally or otherwise) a few charismatic, bolshy, yet decidedly shady characters have benefitted and emerged as stars and future chists leading us all to the new Jerusalem of what no one knows but lets have faith in them.

And screw what its doing to the social climate in this country. That's just irresponsible no matter how you look at it unless you really are small minded.

familycourtq · 05/09/2019 11:44

The ERG have done far more to thwart brexit than any remainer.
I don't think this contention is supported by the numbers in terms of the parliamentary votes.

LaurieMarlow · 05/09/2019 11:50

i don't think this contention is supported by the numbers in terms of the parliamentary votes.

Was it not specifically lack of support from ERG that prevented the WA being passed?

We could be out by now without that.

Gone2far · 05/09/2019 13:28

How about Labour voting against it because they could get a better deal?

Jillyhilly · 05/09/2019 17:36

It should be a clear assessment of the facts!!

But most people aren’t moved by facts. They don’t feel strongly about facts. What they feel strongly about is values. There is something about this debate that hits people very hard on a gut level because ultimately it is about what it means to be British. And now we have a group of people who seem to want to be “European” and a group of people who seem to want to think about themselves as a sovereign nation. But it’s more complicated than that. Remainers seem to see the EU as a kind of moral force for good in the world and a way of solving problems, whereas Brexiteers reject that and see something darker and controlling. They want to go it alone and think that Britain is more than capable of doing that. I actually feel that Remainers have got out of the habit of thinking that Britain and the British can be a powerful force for good in the world. It is now fashionable to think the complete opposite -
I mean a few posts up someone is saying that people who think England is a great country is stupid and bigoted! I mean that’s pretty strange and sad when you think about it. Would they say the same about, say, a Nigerian who thought Nigeria was the best country in the world? To an extent I agree with the argument that a left wing ideology has caused this kind of attitude. And perhaps now there is a push back about that, and Remainers need to learn a different way of thinking about the fact that actually this is a pretty good country.

Anyway, this endless, exhausting back and forth about who can quote better facts is sort of irrelevant. And it will never stop, and it will never change anything. In all the discussions over the last 3 years, has anyone ever changed their mind because someone else shouted better or louder facts at them? I doubt it. What has helped my thinking - and changed my mind to a degree - is the opportunity to exchange ideas with people who disagreed with me in a really non-threatening environment when no one was trying to change my mind. And seeking out and just listening to viewpoints that were not my own. It’s been incredibly interesting, and at this point I don’t feel angry at anyone.

I think the dialogue could improve, but we should all try to be part of improving it. Just bloody listen when people talk, and don’t try to change their minds the moment they open their mouths. And even if you had the best facts in the world, at the end of the day nobody actually knows what will happen either way. I mean the entire EU could implode and it could turn out we’d done the right thing by leaving. Who knows?

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