To think this is the end of the Tories

[SirJamesTalbotAndHisSpeculum]

…..as we know them.

None of them can agree with one another. It seems that there will be utter chaos when the Election is called as their Manifesto will be impossible to write.

He’s actually much crapper than I thought he would be. I am always surprised when I see products of expensive educations who can’t make a decent fist at a bit of public speaking

Agreed - and yet there was a thread (now deleted) a few days ago in which the OP said she thought BJ was very articulate.

…...which of course he isn't.

the OP said she thought BJ was very articulate.
He is - when it suits him.

The bimbling fool schtick is just that - it's an act. He could spend a lot of time doing a polished speech - but he chooses not to. It appears that some people like it. No accounting for taste.

Thank you, Keto, and I do apologise.

In my defence, I took The Guardian as my source and it clearly quotes John Robins, Chief Constable. That's where I thought you got the information from.

I should have known better than to trust The Grauniad

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/sep/06/brexit-boris-johnson-news-latest-eu-labour-confirms-it-will-not-vote-on-monday-night-for-early-election-live-newsbior?page=with%3Ablock-5d7236df8f083106f455680b

I think more women need to research and educate themselves and not take what they read in the press as gospel.

Erm, don't you mean more 'people' or are men exempted from your suggestion?
I do agree that a shocking number of people in this country are completely ignorant about politics and don't seem to care anyway. Hence how we ended up in this dire situation.

Still, fingers crossed that the Tories are fucked.

It certainly wasn't his finest moment.

SingingLily I completely agree with you, one of the most dangerous aspects of politics at the moment is a lack of a credible opposition. Which has given succour to BJ and his cronies to think they can do whatever they like and get away with it. Hence proroguing parliament and telling outright lies etc.

And of course the leader sets the agenda for the party. If David Milliband was the Labour leader, Labour would be walking it.

It's scary what might happen but I think the Tories would get in with an increased majority, if you include some fringe Brexit party loonies that would vote with any -fascist- right wing proposal Boris put forward.

In my view, Carthage, it gave Theresa May a free pass, too. She dithered and obfuscated for three years leaving the country to fester at a time when there were so many other national concerns needing direction and leadership and innovation. We are all the poorer for her premiership, as well as Jeremy Corbyn's ineffectual opposition.

I much prefer conviction politicians. Like them, loathe them, at least you know what they stand for and we can use our votes accordingly.

That's if our votes still count for something, of course

This is their 1924 moment - although there are history lessons here for Labour too -

www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/cabinetpapers/cabinet-gov/ramsay-macdonald-1924.htm

So it's almost time for the news this evening.

What could have happened today?

SingingLily I agree with you about May. I think she got caught up with her fantasy as a Thatcher figure who would battle with the EU and come out with a good deal and lead the country into the sunset. In reality she was cloth-eared, never listening to anyone and a one note politician.. She completely got sidetracked by Brexit and hadn't got the influencing or political skills to deliver that either. Thus leaving the way for the ERG to take over.

I'm not sure about conviction politicians though. They can be dangerous because they never question themselves. Hence us having one of the only water and sewage systems that's privately owned (largely by overseas companies), is pretty expensive and still has a huge number of leaks and under-investment.

My sister had a problem with her pipes and five different Thames Water teams turned out before they sorted it, and according to Greenwich University, it costs consumers £2.3 billion more a year than if it was publicly owned. So while some privatisation of companies where competition was feasible, like airlines, was positive, it hasn't worked well in other areas. But because Thatcher was a conviction politician, she wouldn't see anything other than her vision of the economy.

Meanwhile Tony Blair took us into the Iraq war because of his conviction that it was the right thing to do. And Michael Gove was convinced that he needed to overhaul our education and examination system based on his own experiences at grammar school with no reference to experts. Cos what do they know?

But if you're saying we need more politicians who aren't career politicians, who've come from business and industry, yes I agree with that. But not journalism because they tend to believe in their own scribblings, particularly those who write opinions pieces, enjoy being controversial for its own sake and like to stir things up.

Agreed - Theresa May was more Edward Heath than Margaret Thatcher.

By conviction politicians, I mean those who have clearly expressed principles and so all of their actions and decisions spring from a consistent and rational point of view. You practically know how they are going to behave or react or vote because it would always be entirely in keeping with their beliefs.

The best ones are those who can reach across both sides of the House and find common cause. I'm thinking of politicians like Frank Field, the late Tessa Jowell, even Jacob Rees Mogg. He is vilified by some as a Lord Toff but he has excellent working relationships with many Labour MPs. I think Lindsey Hoyle would make an excellent Speaker; unlike the superannuated toddler currently in post, he is good-humoured, impartial and commands respect. The last great Speaker, in my view, was Betty Boothroyd. I believe all of those to be conviction politicians.

But to go back to the original point of the thread, do I believe this is the end of the Conservatives? No. It's the oldest established political party in the world for good reason. It seeks to conserve but when change is the only answer and the only means of its survival, it is ruthless in effecting that change. I think that's what we are seeing now. It's a realignment. I also think the same thing is happening in the Labour Party. It cannot continue pretending to represent both its Northern Leaver heartlands and its metropolitan Remainer constituencies. It has to choose and the choice is being forced on it now, hence the foot-dragging over the GE it's been demanding for so long.

Far from being the end of the Conservatives, I think it's the end of the two-party system altogether.

SingingLily

I agree this isn’t the end of the Conservative party as you posted there's a reason why they are the most successful political party and come an election with the fear of labour taking power they will come together.

I posted before that Corbyn doesn’t support a second referendum I don’t believe he does because he has constantly said that he believes in democracy and we also know he wants to leave - he doesn’t with a no deal. What he has been saying recently is more along party lines but is you listen he still talkes about the possibility of leaving with a good deal

Labour are in a difficult position if they campaign for a second referendum in the run up to the GE they are likely to loose millions of voters where they hold a number if seats - this is perfect not so much for the Tories but the Brexit Party and that isn’t so bad for Boris

I am not convinced s second referendum would change the result if it were put to the public as it was in 2016

A second referendum now would just be asking how do we get out of this mess?

A truly democratic referendum would involve revoking article 50, waiting for our political car crash to return to some semblance of order and stability and then holding a referendum with tight controls on what promises can be made after about 5 years.

In the meantime, the EU bureaucrats need to make some effort to educate the British on how the EU really works so more people have a reasonable idea of what they are voting to leave.

I am not convinced s second referendum would change the result if it were put to the public as it was in 2016

Nor am I, Enthusiasm. People have plenty of anecdotal evidence of Leavers now saying they would vote Remain. In my own family, my Remainer stepson and DiL are now firmly in the Leave camp. People do change their minds. However, I've been watching Electoral Calculus and the poll of polls since the referendum and the figures really haven't varied much at all. Attitudes have simply polarised and hardened.

Have you noticed that Boris repeatedly refers to Jeremy Corbyn's surrender bill and the way in which he deliberately conjoins Labour and the SNP when referring to the current chaos in Parliament? It's careful positioning. I read the other day that nuanced targeted messaging on social media is now being tested in selected areas of the country by the Conservative Party. The LibDems have always done this; different messages for different regions. However, I think this is more individual than that.

It's not aimed at older voters. It's always been a lazy assumption that the Vote Leave campaign targeted them through social media but Oftel figures at the time clearly demonstrated that they were demographic least engaged in social media. They would have missed the online messages altogether or dismissed them as not as pertinent as MSM.

In the meantime, the EU bureaucrats need to make some effort to educate the British on how the EU really works so more people have a reasonable idea of what they are voting to leave.

I seem to remember that Jean-Claude Juncker made precisely that offer to David Cameron in the run-up to the referendum. Sadly, DC thought it would be counter-productive. Can't think why. I think we would have had a much more decisive result if he had. 😂

Matthew Parris, former Conservative MP, says in The Times today that the party he’s supported all his life no longer exists.

I have never thought a second referendum would change the result. What worries me the most however is that the longer this goes on, the more frustrated people are getting and the more frustrated they are, the more hardline they are. If there is an extension and then a GE, the risk is quite large I think of a Tory majority, propped up by a smattering of Brexit Party MP's. Talk of a deal seems to have disappeared completely. Now there is a chance of another extension and an election that Labour and the Lib Dems think they can win, why should they vote for any deal?

I'd be amazed and disappointed if Jacob Rees Mogg could find common cause across the political spectrum. Another Tory that thinks he knows better than experts, such as the doctor who he likened to the disgraced researcher, Andrew Wakefield. I'd find it difficult to find common cause with someone who regularly voted against equality for homosexuals, against abortion whatever the reason in Northern Ireland, against human rights legislation, smoking in cars with children in them, and increased welfare benefits. Meanwhile he bases his company in a tax haven, thereby avoiding paying UK tax. So it would appear it's okay for him to increase his income at the expense of the tax payer but not for the poor and vulnerable. Nice guy...

Amber Rudd has just quit the conservatives. We are definitely seeing the party implode right now. Its fascinating in a warped way, but also scary!

😲

Her resignation letter didnt pull any punches! Good for her.