To think a second referendum is the ONLY democratic way forward?

[tequilasunrises]

With Remain, Deal and No Deal on the ballot?

It’s becoming so tricky to gage the public view on Brexit now that No Deal seems the most likely outcome. The DM comments would have you believe that No Deal was what we voted for all along. There a #remainernow campaigns on Twitter that argue that No Deal was never what anyone voted before. There are original Remainers that claim we have been treated so badly by the EU that they would now vote to Leave.

I still think Leave would win, but I think this would be split between Deal and No Deal giving Remain a majority.

But Brexit with a Deal and No Deal Brexit are seemingly two different factions now, so how else can any government democratically get around this?

Thoughts?

I think after today, regarding Johnson's embarrassing performance in the House of Commons, Gove's vagueness around the detail, and the Daily Mail's rowing back on its support, that No Deal should be put to the public, yes.

Not even Johnson believes in it as a 'solution', you can see it plainly.

How it's done is another matter.

I think a second referendum is a good idea but it needs to be conducted in such a way that the Leave vote isn't split between two options.

Boris looks finished already, that's the worst performance I've ever seen by a PM. Who knows if a GE would change his fortunes but he looks badly out of his depth.

Funny seeing Theresa May chuckling away at Boris' performance.

I think both leave and remain voters just want it all over and done with at this stage. A deal or no deal type referendum would probably result in victory for no deal which is disastrous. I think turn out would be low and people would tick that to get it over and done with without particular thought for repercussions.

The first referendum should not have happened, many people had no idea what they were voting for.

I don’t think it’s the only option (e.g. general election) but an election makes me nervous.

I just want no deal ruled out. At this point I don’t mind leaving if we have to but just not by crashing out.

I’m so fucking up of hearing “remoaners, project fear, scaremongering” in the face of hard and fast evidence that no deal would really set us back in terms of quality of life, especially those of us on lower incomes. And all for nothing.

We can chew this over and over and over. I don't like the referendum result either, however I am an advocate of following due process.

I think the whole thing was corrupt and based on lies, no matter which way you voted.

I'm sick of hearing about it

And also I don’t want it over and done with. Well I do, but not at the cost of a shitty outcome for us.

It boggles my mind that when individual trade deals can take literally years, people moan over a withdrawal agreement taking time. I would like an end to uncertainty but I would much rather wait and make sure it is implemented to the best it can be.

I think it’s too late for another vote, well too late for anything really. The country is too angry and divided. I don’t think there is any way to recover.

@Bahlindah I think that it should be split because in reality they are two vastly different options. It would be interesting to see the split.

@cloudyvanilla can’t agree enough with your last point. I’m sick of hearing that Remainers are whining spoiled brats for not accepting the referendum result when actually most are just shit scared that it will have a negative impact on their lives. Nobody wants more hardship and I for one would like to be reassured that things will be better, not called a stupid remoaner. I’d absolutely love for Brexit to make a roaring success!

Yes, it's the only option that will shut everyone up.

Deal, no deal or remain with a winner takes all.

Then Indyref2 so Scots can decide if we want to stick with the result or go alone.

I am so sick of it all.

I am sick of elections, sick of changes in PM, sick of seeing BBC flowcharts on ‘what’s next’, sick of opinion polls putting unheard of single-issue parties in the lead.

I don’t want any referendum where Remain wins by default because the Leave vote is split between ‘options’. That would just be seen as a stitch-up.

I don’t want No Deal, but I don’t want it taken off the table as an option until we have a deal.

Really, this has gone on long enough.

I didn't vote leave, but that was the result of a democratic vote. How would another vote be democratic? It's been and gone, done now.

It needs to be a two part vote:

1. Remain or Leave

2. If the result of part one is leave then how, deal, no deal, whatever other options are on the table.

I voted remain and would do so again but you can’t split the leave vote.

No Deal is far, far from an 'over and done with' end. It's just the beginning of years if not a decade or more of hearing about it and feeling the downside effects. Every.Fucking.Day.

Possibly the best solution is to have a GE.
People can then vote for Conservative /BXP if they support leave, and LibDem/Labour /others if they support remain.
Whoever commands a majority would then have a mandate to proceed.

That assumes a majority. And even with the Torries' working majority under May, the Leavers couldn't agree how to leave.

I assumed Remain parties would win as per the EU elections?

Jacob Rees-Mogg on LBC yesterday said the reason we shouldn't have another referendum is because... People understand more about the consequences of Brexit and will vote to remain.

BunchMunch is Labour a Remain party, though? In a GE they would have to be much less evasive in their policy. If they support Remain/Second Referendum then many Labour voters who support Leave will just stay at home and hand marginal seats to the Torres.

A General Election so early in the University autumn term may have a big effect on voting in University towns.

@BunchMunch

It's hard to say, the polls are pretty close re. the vote share between the Remain (inc. Labour) and Leave (inc. Tory) parties at the moment, and vote share means very little at the end of a GE. We have FPTP, not PR after all.

Also, Labour has seemingly just confirmed they won't back a GE if Boris tries to call one now. They seem to want him to stew in this mess for a bit.

@tequilasunrises exactly. I would love to be proven wrong and for Britain to be benefited or at least not damaged. Whereas leave supporters act like we are childishly clinging on to our wish to remain and are sore losers. It’s a pathetically childish way to look at an issue that could affect the price and availability of food ffs.

Those who think you can’t split the leave vote - why not?

Would people vote honestly if the only option was Leave? I’m willing to bet there are people would would vote Remain even though they would prefer a Brexit deal just to avoid No Deal.

What makes it democratic if we just keep voting on it?

We voted. We voted to leave. Whether you agree with the decision or not doesn't make it undemocratic. I voted remain and I would love it if we could stay but we can't. WE voted to go.

Democracy doesn't always give people what they want. It gives the majority what they want. I don't think I've yet voted for a party that has actually ended up in charge of the country, and yet I am stuck with Boris Johnson. Not great, but it's democracy. The tories got an overall majority so we are stuck with them. Same principle for the referendum. We may not all like it, but the majority voted for it.

It's fine though, we can blame them when it goes tits up. And they can't whine about it because they voted for it.

it would be complex - you'd have to tick all 3 options with 1,2,3 as leavers would argue you had split their vote - as they would vote leave with a deal and possibly leave with no deal

as a remainer I'd also like the option to ensure any Brexit was with a deal agreed by parliament not just Boris throwing his toys out the pram

@Blueoasis I fully appreciate that but it’s been three years and the ‘winners’ still can’t agree on how to exucute their ‘win’.

I just can’t see a downside to confirming that it is still what WE want. If we still want to Leave we will vote to Leave again.