To think a second referendum is the ONLY democratic way forward?

[tequilasunrises]

With Remain, Deal and No Deal on the ballot?

It’s becoming so tricky to gage the public view on Brexit now that No Deal seems the most likely outcome. The DM comments would have you believe that No Deal was what we voted for all along. There a #remainernow campaigns on Twitter that argue that No Deal was never what anyone voted before. There are original Remainers that claim we have been treated so badly by the EU that they would now vote to Leave.

I still think Leave would win, but I think this would be split between Deal and No Deal giving Remain a majority.

But Brexit with a Deal and No Deal Brexit are seemingly two different factions now, so how else can any government democratically get around this?

Thoughts?

I voted Remain.
I think it's absolutely ridiculous thatit's dragging on so long and people are trying to block and delay it.
Like it or not, people voted to LEAVE and it should happen.
I tell you what, if there was another referendum I'd either not vote at all (as what would be the point if the vote wasn't going to be listened to?)
or I might even vote Leave if I did.
I'd bet there's some out there who'd agree with me, as there's a lot of pissed off people out there that feel their vote doesn't count and would still vote Leave (live in a Brexit leave area here and local FB's groups and people in RL thinking the same.

I think it should just be a Leave option, as per the first referendum. During the first referendum, no deal was not entertained as a realistic possibility, neither by the Leave campaign nor in the government white paper (as to what would happen if Leave won) published in accordance with the EU referendum act.

Now, anyone voting Leave will do so knowing there is a real chance of No Deal, and all the dangers that come with it.

And there's no point having Deal on the ballot unless the particulars of that Deal are agreed with the EU and published ahead of the vote. Otherwise, if Deal won (unlikely) there would still be the debate over what the deal should look like.

I voted Remain and would do so again but I think splitting the Leave vote would be undemocratic. If Deal and No Deal must be on the ballot paper, it should be a two-tier vote.

I just can’t see a downside to confirming that it is still what WE want. If we still want to Leave we will vote to Leave again

Exactly.
What happens if it comes out as Leave again? Best out of three?!

I tell you what, if there was another referendum I'd either not vote at all (as what would be the point if the vote wasn't going to be listened to?)
The vote has been listened to. May tried to get us to leave with a deal for 2 years (but was largely blocked by other Leave-supporting MPs who didn't think her Brexit was Brexitty enough).

@tequilasunrises that's true, but they never were going to either. I'm not certain they actually expected to win. Its amazing how quick all of the leave leaders jumped ship as soon as it happened..

If we allowed it, we would have to allow a second referendum for Scotland too, and i really don't want Scotland splitting from the UK. Different matter altogether.

I think we are just going to have to accept a no deal is going to happen and hope to God its not too bad.

I voted remain but we need to honour the result of the Ref. A lot of people are saying stop no deal when they really mean stop Brexit altogether.

The vote has been listened to. May tried to get us to leave with a deal for 2 years (but was largely blocked by other Leave-supporting MPs who didn't think her Brexit was Brexitty enough)

OK, fair enough, but even if they were blocked, that's kind of still my point - that people are fighting, arguing, blocking it instead of just letting them bloody get on with it and Leave.

Those who think you can’t split the leave vote - why not?
Because say it’s 48% remain and 52% leave again.
For arguments sake, let’s say the leave split was 50% in favour of no deal and 50% in favour of deal.
You’d then end up with
48% remain
26% deal
26% no deal
So remain would win even though the whole of leave would amass to more

OK, fair enough, but even if they were blocked, that's kind of still my point - that people are fighting, arguing, blocking it instead of just letting them bloody get on with it and Leave.
But it's clearly not that simple when there was a majority who were willing to back some form of Leave but couldn't agree on how it should be done.

Splitting the leave with deal or no deal so that remain wins is an underhanded tactic.

It would be a cynical ploy to remain and a complete betrayal of the original vote and the people who voted leave for what ever reason.

Every party has spent the last three years pissing around and point scoring rather than working for the best they can do for the UK. Scum the lot of them.

@bananaboy9

Point taken, but is that not what happens in a GE? Say 40% vote Conservatives, 35% Labour and 25% Lib Dem. Conservatives win even though technically a majority voted ‘not conservative’.

I don’t think No Deal Leavers and Leave with a Deal-ers share a common goal despite semantics.

Splitting the leave with deal or no deal so that remain wins is an underhanded tactic.

Agree. People voted to Leave, no way should it be manipulated so that remain could still win by splitting the Leave vote.
Leave should mean Leave. Not "only if we say so"

Most leavers would probably still choose brexit of a different flavour to their preference over remain. If you want a fair vote it would have to be either leave/remain followed by deal/no deal or deal/no deal.

the difference is though that a referendum is a one issue ‘yes/no’ question.
The system in terms of GE works because it’s for representatives to work on a variety of issues so you can have different parties.

When it comes to one issue referendums, it’s just a straightforward opinion poll really so it doesn’t work in the same way that a GE process would because you’re not looking for representatives, you’re looking for a straightforward answer

Democratically we voted to leave.
That was the result and it should stand.
Hardly a democracy if we keep voting till everyone gets their own way.

How about
Leave
Remain as was
Remain with Cameron’s deal

....let’s split the remain vote

SaltySeaBird has the correct approach I think. I would support that.

It's unfair to Leave voters to split the Leave vote across 'Leave' vs 'No Deal' as it reduces their chance of winning. I speak as someone who voted Remain in 2016 and would do so again and think leaving is a baffling idea.

Now that much more information has become available (of two kinds (1) that Brexit is like trying to pick the eggs out of a cake and is an almighty faff, and that (2) nefarious advertising via Facebook and other goings may have seriously misled some voters) people are in a position to make a marginally more informed decision. If they really vote to Leave then that's it, I think we'd have to Leave. I hope that not enough people vote Leave in this mythic second Referendum and I'd much prefer Article 50 to be revoked if that were possible.

Asking people to make a decision among three options where two are largely the same is not fair to Leavers. It's also not that fair to Remainers because if we 'win' then we will forever have that win overshadowed by a dodgy poll.

People saying that they want it over - of course, but from what I understand we haven't even started yet and this may run for years as we work out the various rules and regs to continue moving stuff around.

Jo

The only way I could see a second referendum solving anything would be if they took remain off the ballot (seeing as leave won) and only gave options on how we leave I.e deal, no deal, WTO etc etc

OK, fair enough, but even if they were blocked, that's kind of still my point - that people are fighting, arguing, blocking it instead of just letting them bloody get on with it and Leave
I should also add that loads of Leave voters had a problem with May's WA, calling it a betrayal.

"Just bloody get on with it"
/May bloody gets on with it/
"No, not like that!"
I should also a

The only way I could see a second referendum solving anything would be if they took remain off the ballot (seeing as leave won) and only gave options on how we leave I.e deal, no deal, WTO etc etc
No Deal = WTO...

And if there's a chance the majority of the public might now want to remain (possible but not a given), why exclude it from the vote? Too much democracy?

Really if there is a second referendum, it should be Remain Vs whatever version of Leave parliament settles on before the vote; otherwise who is to say Parliament will implement the winning option?

If the vote had been binding it would have been illegal so acting as though it is binding is ridiculous
The main issue is that what was promised is not deliverable

why exclude it from the vote
Because leave won the first time and that should still be implemented.

I’m sick of hearing “we’ve had a democratic vote and it should be listened to”.

No, it was not democratic, the Leave side have been found Guilty of election fraud, and the side of that BUS- more lies.

I will only accept Brexit if we have another referendum- we all know the facts now so we can vote again. And it would be great if there was no lead up to it and all campaigning was banned!!

@LizzieSiddal you have to accept it because that’s what is happening. Just because you backed the loser, doesn’t mean you can shout for another vote