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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

To think a second referendum is the ONLY democratic way forward?

183 replies

tequilasunrises · 03/09/2019 18:17

With Remain, Deal and No Deal on the ballot?

It’s becoming so tricky to gage the public view on Brexit now that No Deal seems the most likely outcome. The DM comments would have you believe that No Deal was what we voted for all along. There a #remainernow campaigns on Twitter that argue that No Deal was never what anyone voted before. There are original Remainers that claim we have been treated so badly by the EU that they would now vote to Leave.

I still think Leave would win, but I think this would be split between Deal and No Deal giving Remain a majority.

But Brexit with a Deal and No Deal Brexit are seemingly two different factions now, so how else can any government democratically get around this?

Thoughts?

OP posts:

MordredsOrrery · 04/09/2019 08:09

Autumn

Yes, trying to gaslight 17m+ people is tyranny. On that we are agreed.

What is interesting about Leave is that, not only did they try this at a high level on the whole electorate, they illegally overspent and employed dubious methods to target 7m people in the last 4 days. It is called corruption and it has gone virtually unchallenged by the people whose job it is to protect our society and our sovereignty.

This matters more than the outcome itself.

user1493759849 · 04/09/2019 08:12

MerryChristmasHarry · 04/09/2019 08:18

I voted to remain, but having a 2nd referendum because people weren’t happy with the first result seems like something that would happen in some 3rd world dictatorship, Mugabe style…. So we leave.

No, shitting on electoral law and cheating like the Leave campaign did is something that would happen in some 3rd world dictatorship. Mature democracies should understand when we've been attacked and void the results of such elections, not pretend it didn't happen and invite anyone else who wants to attack our democracy next time to do it. After all, why wouldn't you, if it means you get what you want.

MsTSwift · 04/09/2019 08:26

People were asked to vote for a “thing” but no one actually practically knew what it was or how to do it.
Good example of how well parliament usually works. You step outside “normal” with a referendum - chaos.

ShatnersWig · 04/09/2019 08:31

If there was to be a second referendum (hell, even the odious Rees Mogg said there was an argument for a second referendum on a deal) then there should be two options:

a) The Withdrawal Agreement as offered by the EU
b) Remain in the EU

Whether "you" like the Withdrawal Agreement or not, it IS leaving the EU. So if you want Brexit, there you have it. It's a compromise but it was always going to be a compromise because Vote Leave promised a deal from the outset and even Farage said he wanted a deal. So why should no deal be offered? If you don't like the deal, well, tough - that's what's on offer. Take it and gloat because "you won".

Then we can all move on, get through the transition period, sort out the necessary deals with the EU, and then get back to domestic policies.

BeerandBiscuits · 04/09/2019 08:33

I can't see MPs allowing another referendum, despite so many of them asking for one. They must know that the leave vote has been strengthened by all the delaying tactics and pissing about over the past 3 years. People just want it all to be over.

AutumnCrow · 04/09/2019 08:39

How, exactly, does 'No Deal' mean anything is 'over'?

Watchingthyme · 04/09/2019 08:41

It I don’t think anyone would change their mind. And I think if given the choice many leavers would vote for a hard Brexit.
It’s just too complicated for the general public. I think I’m clever and it’s too complicated for me

Joans3rddaughter · 04/09/2019 08:46

So what is Remain?

Remain. Accepting more of the same indefinately
Remain. Attempt to improve terms for the UK
Never have an option to leave
Have an option to leave if other countries leave.

Get my drift? Why has nobody asked what a Remain vote means?

MarbleCake · 04/09/2019 08:47

The country already voted to leave so remain shouldn't be an option. However voting on leaving with a deal or not is a good idea.

ShatnersWig · 04/09/2019 08:49

Remain would be staying as we were, allowing our elected MEPs to represent our best interests in the EU Parliament.

We have a better deal than most in the EU. We have a veto so we don't have to sign up to some things if we don't want - which is why a lot of the scaremongering was nonsense. We could, for example, have stemmed the flow of immigration if we wished - other EU countries did; OUR Government (Labour at the time) decided to let everyone in, so if people had an issue about it, the ire should be directed at our lot, not the EU.

user1471448556 · 04/09/2019 08:55

The WA has been rejected three times. There should be a new ref: no deal or remain. The last ref was over three years ago and the result was based on promises that cannot be kept. Another ref is legitimate. It should be binding and require a supermajority. If remain wins and Farage and co want to try again, they can do so, but might be a good idea to come up with a realistic plan first.

pelirocco123 · 04/09/2019 09:03

I voted remain
Re voting because you dont like the first decision is not democratic

time4chocolate · 04/09/2019 09:11

Remain would be staying as we were, allowing our elected MEPs to represent our best interests in the EU Parliament

That's questionable when 29 of the UK's elected MEPs are from The Brexit Party.

Cinammoncake · 04/09/2019 09:13

YANBU

No solution is ideal but a public vote on it seems the most sensible thing.

'No deal' fans need to realise that it wouldnt all be over, it would only be the start of negotiations and it will rumble on for decades and be very destructive.

I'm a remainer but would be far happier to leave with a deal than no deal

Dongdingdong · 04/09/2019 09:16

How about a two-round referendum?

Round one is simply Leave vs Remain. If Remain wins then that' it, we revoke A50 and stay in the EU.

If Leave wins, another vote is put to the public: May's deal vs No Deal.

Dongdingdong · 04/09/2019 09:17

that's

CornishMaid1 · 04/09/2019 09:20

I never understand why people think 'leave means leave' and 'they won so remain should not be an option'.

That is not how politics works. We don't have a general election, one party end up in power and say that is what the majority wanted so we can never vote again. After all, the majority voted for austerity, so we should continue with austerity measures for ever more as that is what people voted for and to change it would be to go against the will of the people.

Yes people voted leave. The government has tried to leave. To do so is having disastrous effects on the country and the economy and it has become very clear that a lot of people do not actually know what the vote would do either way. It is only fair to go back to the people and get a mandate for whether they press ahead or whether the people want to halt it or work for a deal.

You only have to watch some of the LBC radio phone ins with James O'Brien to see how some people really did not understand it - the number of callers who don't want to be controlled by EU laws but can't name any they don't like, who saw it as a protest vote against the government or who don't like immigrants coming in and not integrating (but can't name an EU country that is predominantly non-white or muslim that all these migrants are coming from) is staggering.

No-one has yet come up with a solution for the border in Northern Ireland and want to push our country back into another civil war.

ForalltheSaints · 04/09/2019 09:22

I'd like one but the Lib Dems will not get enough votes for it to happen.

It's a case of damage limitation, so some sort of deal is the best we can hope for.

Unescorted · 04/09/2019 09:24

Another petition to sign & share if you are so minded

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/270385

time4chocolate · 04/09/2019 09:32

Round one is simply Leave vs Remain. If Remain wins then that' it, we revoke A50 and stay in the EU

So referendums are advisory only when you don't get the outcome you want first time round. So the answer is to run another advisory referendum and if it returns the correct answer then it's not advisory ("if remain wins then that's that, we revoke and stay in the EU"). Can't see any problem with that at all!!

MerryChristmasHarry · 04/09/2019 09:46

Not that many people have changed their minds in the last 3.5 years, but the composition of the electorate has changed. There are millions of people who were too young to vote in 2016 who are now 18 and over, and we know the young are disproportionately Remain. There are also millions of people who voted in 2016 who have now passed away. When you have an issue where one of the major cleavages is age, like Brexit, it doesn't actually require anyone to change their minds for the balance to potentially shift.

Timtamtom · 04/09/2019 09:56

There are millions of people who were too young to vote in 2016 who are now 18 and over
What you say is true but if leave won again in a second referendum, and it took another 3 years to sort out, would politicians then say ‘ok we’ll have to have another vote’ because 15 year olds this year will be 18 in three years? Once you start on that spiral, you have to end up having a referendum every x amount of years until loads of old people have died and it’s enough to swing the result to remain

DameSylvieKrin · 04/09/2019 10:06

It wouldn’t be the second referendum. It would be the third. If we could have a second referendum in 2016, why shouldn’t we have a third?
That’s before you consider the corruption that invalidates the second.

Timtamtom · 04/09/2019 10:08

@DameSylvieKrin how was it the second?

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