To think a second referendum is the ONLY democratic way forward?

[tequilasunrises]

With Remain, Deal and No Deal on the ballot?

It’s becoming so tricky to gage the public view on Brexit now that No Deal seems the most likely outcome. The DM comments would have you believe that No Deal was what we voted for all along. There a #remainernow campaigns on Twitter that argue that No Deal was never what anyone voted before. There are original Remainers that claim we have been treated so badly by the EU that they would now vote to Leave.

I still think Leave would win, but I think this would be split between Deal and No Deal giving Remain a majority.

But Brexit with a Deal and No Deal Brexit are seemingly two different factions now, so how else can any government democratically get around this?

Thoughts?

Totally disagree if you have a second and it goes 52 48 the other way are you going to call a third? Like f**k you would. For the sake of democracy it needs to be followed through. The ballot paper last time said leave and stay. People choose leave. It did not ask about a deal or not because people wanted out and they understood out means out not tied into the EU after. If they wanted a vote on the deal no deal it should have been a second question on the original ballot paper but it was not. People still voted out. I know a lot of remainders who now would vote out because the whole thing has been a varse. Unless it's a best of 3 don't even bother it's just spitting your dummy out to get the answer you want. Where does it end. Go to leave without a deal the EU will come running they need our 39billion and they know it. If no deal is removed they don't need to remove the backstop as they have us over a barrel. If we go to leave without they will offer something better. They already proved that when they said the deal was not able to be re-negotiated and then they say can re open talks because we have said we will leave regardless.

Fully agree with Blueoasis - the majority vote was to leave, so the democratic result means leave.

I do wonder if remain was the majority vote and leavers were complaining would there be so much vitriol?

All these arguments about democracy meaning leave might have a point if the Leave campaign hadn't seriously broken electoral law. But they did. Our democracy was attacked. To protect it, we must act to make sure it doesn't happen again. You don't do that by just ignoring the electoral rule breaking and carrying on regardless.

I also think the fuck up we have presently is due to the fact that the MPs have taken it upon themselves to ignore the referendum.

Why do any other leaders believe they could gain a better deal? Do they have magic powers that May didn't have?

I am against every policy that the Conservatives have, but honestly who/what difference could anyone else have had?

Why do any other leaders believe they could gain a better deal? Do they have magic powers that May didn't have?
Yup, but Boris and the hardcore Leavers shot down May's deal and have left us stuck in this mess.

If the Leavers in Parliament had been able to decide between then what leaving should look like, this would all be done and dusted. Unfortunately, what we had instead was certain portions of Parliament and the electorate whinging that May's withdraw agreement was a betrayal.

Its precisely because the Leave politicians and voters have been incapable of deciding the finer points of what they actually voted for that means a second referendum might be required in order for us to move on as a country.

But that referendum MUST have a concrete Leave option that Parliament must deliver if it wins.

Frankly I think it's farcical that a No Deal Brexit could be put to the public but I don't see what other choice we have at this stage, given that we put EU membership to the people in the first instance and Parliament has become all but deadlocked.

(Well, a GE is another option, but if it doesn't materially change the Parliamentary math, we'll still be exactly where we are now).

I do wonder if remain was the majority vote and leavers were complaining would there be so much vitriol?
Probably not because if Remain had won, then there'd have been nothing for Parliament to do. It would have been done and dusted (save for Farage campaiging for a second referendum).

Unfortunately, the Leave MPs having been unable to decide what was voted for, let alone deliver it, has meant this has dragged on for years (and will continue to do so for some time).

And yet they blame the Remainers....

In the event of a 2nd ref, if a remainer decides to vote leave in protest, even though they want to remain, then that explains this whole fucking mess in the first place.

Yeah. It seems at best we're an electorate of contrarians (sometimes it feels closer to just the first syllable).

I'm opposed to another referendum. For it to be run properly this time, we would have had to learn something from the last time. As far as I can see, nobody's learned anything and voters are just more entrenched in their positions.

This thread is both depressing and terrifying. You can tell from the language used by leavers that it’s no longer about what is best for the country, but about “winning” and “losing”. They don’t care about all the damage it’s likely going to do, as long as their ‘team’ wins.

The leave vote was never binding, it was advisory vote, and what was supposedly promised is very different to what is being delivered. The whole campaign has been proven to be based on lies.

The whole country (or half of it anyway) has gone absolutely insane.

I think there’s no point in any kind of referendum. If this fiasco has taught us anything, it’s that ultimately the MPs decide what we do, not the people. Even if 90% of the population had voted leave, it still wouldn’t have happened.

No Deal would be disastrous for the public in ways that many members of the public wouldn't understand, frankly, and I don't think it should be an option.

There's no point in having a referendum until there's a plan for some kind of Brexit. I voted Remain and would love a referendum based on a planned Brexit and Remain being the two options.

Ideally the Labour Party would stand on a Remain ticket and the Conservatives would stand on a Brexit ticket but I've lost any hope of that happening now.

Rees-mog admits a second referendum would overturn the first.

I am a staunch remainer but the answer to your question is sadly a firm No. It was a democratic process. You cannot just keep having more referendums because you don’t like the answer to the first vote! Democratic due process. It makes mire sense to have a general election so the country can have its say that way.

The leave campaign lied. So the result is flawed. £350m for the NHS? Didn't think so.
Also to those saying leave won in 2016 therefore we MUST leave, do you never change a course of action once the consequences of that course of action become clearer? Never put in an offer on a house then withdraw after a survey shows huge problems with damp?
Every economist says brexit will be a disaster for the country. Even leavers are talking in terms of people not dying rather than benefits. It would be pig headed to continue down this route just 'because'. Are people really thay stupid?

Presumably leavers don't even bother with surveys on houses they've offered on. A decision was made, let's get on with it no matter how shit its going to be.

And I'd that is the argument the decision was made back in the 70s. Things may have changed since but that's of no consequence.

On the basis that the leave party were sold a pack of lies then yes there should be another referendum. And even if the result is the same I think people will find it slightly easier to swallow, as everyone knows the full facts this time.

The first referendum should not have happened, many people had no idea what they were voting for.

Not this old chestnut AGAIN!!!

Yep if the British public agreed to leave knowing it involved similar preparations as for war I would accept it. And I myself would look to leave! I don't think any leave voter (or remain voter) back in 2016 predicted this.

I would definitely prefer a second referendum to a general election- I don’t want to see a vote for how Brexit is done to be turned into a mandate for all sorts of things I don’t want.
I think it should b

I’d rather second ref than GA as the thought of Corbyn. Just NO!!

It’s got to the stupid stage now and now just going around in circles.

Call a GE and let people decide.

Pick up the pieces post election 😳😳

So would I. If the vote came back remain (and I'm not sure that it would) I want it to be cowardly Boris that has to give that speech once the result is out. Would be fitting.

I'm not sure what is undemocratic about a second referendum?

According to the High Court the result of the 2016 referendum:

1. Was corruptly won
2. Was not legally binding
3. Would have been quashed had it been legally binding

Nothing about the 2016 referendum result was legal or democratic. If you're arguing the country voted to leave and that's the only democratic thing we can do now, I'm afraid that just doesn't make sense in the face of the High Court's findings.

Democracy matters and the 2016 referendum result was not democratic.

www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/brexit-referendum-corruptly-won-but-result-stands/