To think a second referendum is the ONLY democratic way forward?

[tequilasunrises]

With Remain, Deal and No Deal on the ballot?

It’s becoming so tricky to gage the public view on Brexit now that No Deal seems the most likely outcome. The DM comments would have you believe that No Deal was what we voted for all along. There a #remainernow campaigns on Twitter that argue that No Deal was never what anyone voted before. There are original Remainers that claim we have been treated so badly by the EU that they would now vote to Leave.

I still think Leave would win, but I think this would be split between Deal and No Deal giving Remain a majority.

But Brexit with a Deal and No Deal Brexit are seemingly two different factions now, so how else can any government democratically get around this?

Thoughts?

There's already been a referendum, you can't keep asking until you get the answer you want.

Just because you backed the loser, doesn’t mean you can shout for another vote

Exactly

There's already been a referendum, you can't keep asking until you get the answer you want

Anyone watch Bill and Ted? Reminds me of the "if you beat me I'll let you go" game challenge with the Grim Reaper.
Loses - "best out of three? best out of 5? Damn right!"

(Well, it would be funny if it wasn't so depressing)

Of course you can shout for another vote, that's democracy.

Farage made quiet clear he'd be shouting for another vote if Remain won, as he was well entitled to do.

Also, I believe Theresa May had 3 votes on her deal...

Point taken, but is that not what happens in a GE? Say 40% vote Conservatives, 35% Labour and 25% Lib Dem. Conservatives win even though technically a majority voted ‘not conservative’.

So to use your own example OP, in that situation
60% voted "not Conservative" but
65% voted "not Labour" and
75" voted "not Libdems"

so Conservatives win as they have the least votes AGAINST them!!

@Swedishfishish how come it's the fault of remainers? As someone very eloquently put below, the ERG voted against TM's deal because it wasn't Brexitty enough...
I absolutely do not understand the issue of a second referendum, but it would need to be leave or remain, and if leave won again, possibly deal or no deal (though that frankly terrifies me. You can't kill democracy with more democracy. We absolutely did not have all the facts in 2016 re the reality of trying to leave and the impact of leaving. And it's been proved in court that the leave camp lied, and broke electoral rules. How can a vote based on that still stand?

The remainers are the reason we’ve been pushed this far. They are the reason that a lot of once moderate leavers hoping for a deal are now entirely fed up and would rather see a no deal if it means getting the job done

I would substitute ‘remainers’ with ‘Remain supporting MPs’. Both the Labour and Conservative Party manifestos in 2017 promised to honour the result of the referendum. Labour promised a customs union while removing freedom of movement and Conservative promised no deal was better than a bad deal. MPs representing both parties have gone out their way to go against their own party’s manifesto commitments.

Our MP represents a very safe conservative seat in a constituency which voted Leave in 2016. He has voted against EVERY Brexit option other than supporting a second referendum. He is now Lib Dem. I really hope there is a GE soon and he loses his seat.

@SweetSummerchild and @Bananaboy9 spot on.

The only ones wanting a second ref are remainers (not all remainers, obviously). No leaver wants it, and why should they? I'm still wondering why the winning side is expected by the losing side to compromise to the extent that we can now leave ONLY if a deal is agreed by the MPs who have always been desperate to stay.

The fact is, if 52% of MPs had voted to leave we'd be out. Our position is totally hamstrung by fanatics in parliament, who I believe at this point genuinely believe their own shit that THEY are the ones fighting for democracy. It is lunacy.

This particular decision was deemed one for the people. MPs voted in favor of holding a referendum, and a leaflet was printed and distributed at great cost to the taxpayer detailing the risks (which still haven't come to pass!), and promising to implement the result, whatever it was. This no-deal "debate" is a smokescreen for MPs who've been fighting tooth and nail since June 24th to overturn the decision. Absolutely pathetic.

I don't know if it's the only democratic way. But as the first referendum was totally without legitimacy due to the winning side breaking electoral laws, it's imperative we do not leave on the basis of that vote. Otherwise we are leaving ourselves open to such interference every time we have an election. Protecting our democracy requires that we don't implement the result of a cheated referendum, and that if we do leave, it's because of another, legitimate vote.

What is brexit ?

I know people who voted Leave in 2016 who would now vote Remain because of the batshittery from the Leave camp since.

Yes.

I think there should be multiple options.

We have remain, Deal , No Deal, maybe more.

And then they cut them down.

I know it's not ideal but I don't think we can have a straight yes / no.

And I don't think we can have multie Brexit options competing against Remain.

We need to find out 1/ if people still want to leave 2/ what type of Brexit people want

There's absolutely no way it would be fair to split the Leave vote!! (Said as an ardent Remainer.) It would be totally unfair to have Remain versus 2 different Leave options and Remain would definitely win, even if Leave 1 + Leave 2 won more votes.

So it would need to be a two - part referendum/question as suggested above.

I think we should have a GE with every party making it extremely clear on what their approach to Brexit will be and go with that. Not as undemocratic as a 2nd referendum but better than what BJ is up to.

I think there is a serious issue in the fact that I know a lot of people that voted leave, and all but 2 of them said they would have voted remain if they genuinely understood the prospect of a no deal. They all regret their votes.
But a 2nd referendum would cause riots from a lot of bigots who want our "sovereign state".

In an ideal world a 2nd referendum would be

1. DEAL
2. NO DEAL

Then Noel walks in with a phone

Or

1. REMAIN
2. LEAVE and accept a strong likelihood of no deal

Then you know what the people want. Any politicians including the current PM who lie this time face prosecution.

The only way to decide whether we should have another referendum would be to put it to the vote ; yay or nay. And another one to decide the question(s).

The fact is, if 52% of MPs had voted to leave we'd be out. Our position is totally hamstrung by fanatics in parliament, who I believe at this point genuinely believe their own shit that THEY are the ones fighting for democracy. It is lunacy.
Again, completely ignoring the fact that there was a majority of MPs who would have supported some version of Leave, but the Leavers couldn't find a consensus on how we should actually Leave.

We'd have left by now if Boris, Rees Mogg and their pals had backed Theresa May.

I think that a establishing a mandate for Deal vs No Deal is just as important as Leave vs Remain. Even if they don’t make it binding it would stop people insisting that a vote for Leave was a vote for No Deal, because it wasn’t. We were promised the easiest deal in history and £350bn to the NHS. Surely it can never be undemocratic to double check what the general public actually want now the detail has better clarity?

Please, please, please can people stop doing the predictable thing of turning against Remain voters and blaming them for where we are now?? Can you honestly not see that it plays rather nicely into the hands of those who are mostly responsible for it - the politicians?? And while we're at it - the most vitriolic, sneering insults on here that I've seen (and I've been following a lot of threads down the Brexit rabbit hole) have been made by Leave voters, deliberately goading genuinely devastated and concerned Remain voters. We are upset because we know this to be the wrong decision for the country and the way it's played out over the past three years in Westminster and Brussels only confirms this! Brexit is taking so long to achieve not because of 'remoaners' (such a horribly derogatory term) because it is trying to achieve the impossible, at least without severely damaging the country.

And no, I have never called Leave voters thick etc. But, I am angry because many Leave voters bought into lies that could easily have been checked out with a little more research, that others used it as a protest vote against the Government without really thinking through the implications...I could go on, but I am sure I will be accused of being a hysterical snowflake Remoaner (and proud ).

Also. The PP who delightfully informed those not in agreement with her to 'suck it up'. Are we not a little past the 'suck it up' stage? When we're on the brink of a no deal option that could cripple the economy, lead to more deaths, and something that is leading even senior Tory politicians to risk their positions and reputation in speaking out against?? This is not just a debate confined to Mumsnet you know!