To wish we could stop the societal belief that women will/should have children

[SeeTe]

I've just been saying on another thread how I wish I'd been brought up to be more confident with a life without DC. It's practically embedded into society that women / girls WILL go onto have children, 'when you grow up and have children of your own' etc...

I had a lot of fertility issues when TTC and lost a lot of pregnancies and it got me thinking that the thing that affected me the most was that I had this belief that I wasn't a proper woman because this is what women should do and should be able to do and if I'd not grown in a society where everyone acted as though it was a given that this would happen then I may not have taken it so hard. I couldn't be satisfied with 'just' my life because I'd always thought it would involve children one day and it's just the way your life is supposed to go.

I'm not sure exactly what changes I'd like to make but being through what I have done, I don't want to encourage my child into the way of thinking that I grew up with, 'one day you'll be married and have kids etc.'

I don't even know if I'm making sense but I want my DC to be encouraged that there isn't this one perfect way of life that everyone should follow and if they can't then there's something wrong with them and they'll never have as good of a life without it.

I feel like far too many people take it as a given and pass that belief onto their children when in reality it really isn't guaranteed.

It’s clearly sarcasm

@MumApr18

You’ve perfectly summarised up my experiences as a young mum. I receive so much misplaced disgust from my ‘woke’ peers who don’t want children for personal or environmental reasons. They don’t understand me, I may as well be a woodlouse crawing up their arm when I try to make friendly conversation- it’s as if they don’t want to catch the disease of young mum, as if I couldn’t possibly make conversation outside of my child so they don’t bother.

Just to clarify, I love my child dearly but she was unplanned and I had her shortly after graduating university. I miss spending my time with intellectual, often educated, people my own age who suddenly don’t want to know me now. I’ve been adopted by a group of lovely mums in their 30s who’ve shown no judgement towards me, which has helped my feeling of isolation a great deal.

My point is, at this time society values a very narrow scope of ‘motherhood’. Women are held to extremely highly standards and seem to get judged no matter their decision. Nevertheless, I do believe that most women who are firmly against having children don’t have children! I don’t think they bow to societal pressure (“you WILL want children one day”) which is different to a person who was on the fence and then came to regret having children.

How ridiculous, @TerrorYakSores. You may experience your life as a dreary grind from cradle to grave, and pride yourself on your altruism on not inflicting that on a hapless infant, but that’s not the case for everyone.

Oh great. Another parent bashing thread.

They always go the same way. Somebody starts a thread about life without kids - sometimes by choice, sometimes not. Others of us without kids join in, discussing our reasons for not being parents.

Then parents tell us that they feel sorry for us / think we’re wrong / think we don’t understand what we’re missing / think we’ll regret it and some idiot always asks why people without kids are on Mumsnet.

Does all that sound right so far?

This parent was childfree by choice for 40 years, and the fact that she’s had a child does not mean she has forgotten her reasons for thinking a life without children is any less valid, interesting, and valuable.

EmpressLesbianInChair

Derogatory comments were made about parents early on, before any parents actually posted.

Waiting for the parent to pop along to explain to us that we don’t know what love or fulfilment are if we’re childfree. It won’t be long.

EmpressLesbianInChair

This was the first one, halfway down the first page. Fairly goady.

Magic, that isn't goady... It's exactly what always happens and exactly what went on to happen on this thread.

ChippyChipsTho

I felt it was goady and rolled my eyes when I saw it.

Also, no one went on to say those things.

Then parents tell us that they feel sorry for us / think we’re wrong / think we don’t understand what we’re missing / think we’ll regret it and some idiot always asks why people without kids are on Mumsnet.

You forgot how you're shallow and materialistic and prioritising shallow pursuits like travel and restaurants over continuing to overpopulate the planet.

Waiting for the parent to pop along to explain to us that we don’t know what love or fulfilment are if we’re childfree. It won’t be long.

This was the first one, halfway down the first page. Fairly goady.

MagicKingdom. That was me. And not goady at all. Simply factual. And incidentally, proved correct by some on this thread.

AlexaAmbidextra

Not factual at all. Show me where someone said that you don't know what love or fulfilment is if you don't have kids.

Didn't happen.

Mumsnet is increasingly anti parent and anti children and it's starting to piss me off.

I think it has been acceptable for quite a while for women not to want children. Especially due to all the world wars etc. So much so that governments around the world are now starting to panic because only the very rich are choosing to have children. The propaganda ante has been upped in magazines etc so it is becoming less acceptable for a woman to say she doesn't want children even if she doesn't have the emotional or financial resources to cope with them.

I am glad my parents forced me into the world to live and die.
Living is good.
I can't believe anyone would say the things described on this thread to child free women.
Likewise the need to insult women for giving birth.
Who cares enjoy your choices whatever you choose no need to be mean.

Mumsnet is increasingly anti parent and anti children and it's starting to piss me off
I agree some of the dog threads were awful the way posters described DC.
I think people forget they were one or only remember been a perfect one.

I don't think I have ever asked a child free woman when she was going to have DC.
How would you know if it was a choice or not.
I am very conscious of not describing DD as a DM. I cant see her wanting DC whatever she chooses I will support her.

If you live in a country with no access to contraception then there is probably a greater expectation & much higher infant mortality

In the modern world, where there is a wide variety of contraceptive choice. The man or woman has freedom to choose whether to have a child

China one child policy (now problems due to too few children)

More people are choosing not to have children for various reasons. In the past, there was little choice

My great, great grandmother had 10+ children. Not all of them survived

Queen Victoria was an advocate of women's health improvements

Who would want 10+ children today ?

I just saw this article on BuzzFeed - we are not alone!

www.buzzfeed.com/tahliapritchard/wow-how-do-they-survive

I agree some of the dog threads were awful the way posters described DC.

Now I am curious about these "dog threads".... What are they?

I love that article. It shows that there definitely is pressure on women.

It honestly baffles me when people say 'ive never heard anyone ask whether someone is planning to have kids'.

I've heard it so many times, either said to myself or to others.

'Oo kids next winkwink ' - when someone gets married.

'Do you want kids?' - literally said to me within my first couple of hours starting a new job. Like how or why is that any of your business.

'When you have kids..' - said by my parents whilst I was growing up and now by other adults in my life.

We've even been pitied and felt sorry for on this very thread which proved that even if people don't outwardly say anything, there is definitely judgement in the way people think about women without children. Which is wrong!

I don't pity someone who doesn't own a dog, or the same car as me. I don't feel sorry for someone who doesn't want the same career, house, holidays etc... as me. Because everyone is different. If people are happy with their choices, who are we to pity them. It's fake and judgemental and stems from the belief that a woman can't be complete or fulfilled without children.

So no, no one came on this thread and said the exact words, you don't know love or fulfilment but it was certainly and unmistakably implied by at least one shitty poster who pitied and felt sorry for women without kids and told them all that she thought they were materialistic and selfish. If you honestly can't see how that's offensive then I don't know what else to say.

And it's so bloody typical of threads about childfree women which is why we've joked about it. Because it always happens. Posters can't wait to explain just how much you're missing out on, just how sorry they feel for you, just how much they pity you and think you must be so odd not to make the same choices as them. It's bloody irritating and patronising.

ChippyChipsTho

Endless comments towards women about having children are wrong, absolutely.

But people initially asking if you want or have children are usually just making conversation or trying to get to know you. It's along the same lines of asking if they are married or what they do for a living, and then the person being offended because they are single or unemployed.

Almost all my friends are child free by choice. I'm the minority in having children. None of them have experienced pressure from society in this decision, I know because we have had several conversations about it.

I think the notion that society pressures women into having children is a little antiquated, but given that I'm a parent, my opinion or experience in this counts for very little.

I'm sorry if any people on this thread have had negative reactions due to not having or wanting children, but bashing parents and children in general isn't the answer.

No one is bashing parents in general so far as I can see. They are 'bashing' parents who think they have the absolute oracle of life experience and anyone who hasn't is odd/materialistic/selfish/to be pitied etc etc...

I don't have a problem with parents at all. I have a problem with people who think my reproduction is their business or who pity me for not having a child as if I'm some lesser person for it.

You can't say it doesn't happen... It's happened on this thread!

EmeraldShamrock

I agree. Those dog threads were horrible. The language used to describe children was appalling.

Mumsnet is inclusive, but people need to remember that the demographic of a parenting site is oddly enough, parents. Of course, insulting children is going to get people's backs up but they do it anyway.