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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wish we could stop the societal belief that women will/should have children

235 replies

SeeTe · 03/09/2019 11:13

I've just been saying on another thread how I wish I'd been brought up to be more confident with a life without DC. It's practically embedded into society that women / girls WILL go onto have children, 'when you grow up and have children of your own' etc...

I had a lot of fertility issues when TTC and lost a lot of pregnancies and it got me thinking that the thing that affected me the most was that I had this belief that I wasn't a proper woman because this is what women should do and should be able to do and if I'd not grown in a society where everyone acted as though it was a given that this would happen then I may not have taken it so hard. I couldn't be satisfied with 'just' my life because I'd always thought it would involve children one day and it's just the way your life is supposed to go.

I'm not sure exactly what changes I'd like to make but being through what I have done, I don't want to encourage my child into the way of thinking that I grew up with, 'one day you'll be married and have kids etc.'

I don't even know if I'm making sense but I want my DC to be encouraged that there isn't this one perfect way of life that everyone should follow and if they can't then there's something wrong with them and they'll never have as good of a life without it.

I feel like far too many people take it as a given and pass that belief onto their children when in reality it really isn't guaranteed.

OP posts:
SeeTe · 03/09/2019 11:58

As I said up thread I still would have been devastated, it still would have been extremely painful and I still would have struggled.

But the feelings of embarrassment, guilt on my parents, like I was failing at this BIG thing in life that everyone else was doing, was definitely because it's what people expect from you and what you've been told to expect from being young.

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IncyWincyGrownUp · 03/09/2019 11:59

Why though Tabby? Genuine question, I don’t get why we should assume anybody would want to be a parent. My eldest has no intention of having children, and my middle child has significant social communication issues so it’s unlikely he will either. Their choices, not mine to mould.

SeeTe · 03/09/2019 12:00

"when you grow up and have children of your own' etc..." I say this to my son, aswell as my daughter

Well then you're adding to the problem. The whole point is that you shouldnt be putting the expectation on your children that they will be able to/want to do X Y or Z.

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SeeTe · 03/09/2019 12:02

We should be encouraging them that their life is theirs to do with what they choose, not what society or we, as parents, expect and preparing in case something they want doesn't happen so they can know it's not a failure and they can still have a wonderful life without whatever it is.

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MumApr18 · 03/09/2019 12:07

@Sicario All really good points. I 100% understand where you are coming from but it's not RIGHT...I don't think having kids should ruin your career, fuck up your finances. I'm right in the middle of both those things happening though so the reality is that you're spot on.

Seems like women are judged for not having children (through choice or otherwise) but also punished if you do!

BrittleJoys · 03/09/2019 12:08

I think a lot depends on your circles, in terms of expectations and 'pressure'. I was happily childfree until I was almost 40, none of my four siblings have children, and I have a good few friends who don't have children -- of course, there's also a strong correlation between delaying or avoiding having children and maternal educational levels.

However, six years ago I moved out of London to a village, and there was a general assumption here (which people kept telling me about) that I must have struggled with infertility, as apparently no one normal would choose not to have a baby till 39, OR have an only child by choice. I sold a book recently, and DH put a picture of champagne on his FB, and several people in the village approached me to ask whether I was pregnant, having apparently assumed we've been desperately trying since CS was born, seven years ago -- I'm 47. Because who would choose to be an old mother of one??? Who works FT???

Which is a long way round of saying sympathies, OP, and I agree. I was always vocal in putting down those kind of intrusive remarks you describe -- but it was easy for me, because I didn't want a child, so they didn't upset me, just annoyed me. I can very easily imagine the kind of intrusive nagging you would get where I am currently living. The voluntarily childfree would probably be viewed as Unnatural Beings, like werewolves or something.

itwasalovelydreamwhileitlasted · 03/09/2019 12:10

I really struggle with this whole subject as surely there is an element that people are "child free" by choice because they want to maintain/can't imagine giving up their current lifestyle

The only child free people I know are those that couldn't conceive as well. Or they are ones who said for years they didn't want them only to change their minds in their late 30s and then couldn't get pregnant and bitterly regretted it

I would never say to someone's face that I judged them for CHOOSING not to have children but at the back of my mind if I'm honest I'd think it was because they were so wrapped up in materialistic things, money, relationship, holiday, careers etc to think of sharing that with a child

I would be disappointed - not for me - for them - if my DC CHOSE not experience parenthood

TabbyMumz · 03/09/2019 12:11

"Why thoughTabby? Genuine question, I don’t get why we should assume anybody would want to be a parent.".
My view is why not? I've loved having my children, and my parents loved having me and my siblings. For me, it's always been a part of life and I'd like them to have that same experience. It didn't ruin my career or put a damper on anything. If they decide not to have children, I'd be sad that they haven't had that joy, but hope they still enjoy life and what they make of it .

MangoFeverDream · 03/09/2019 12:21

Can we stop calling people without DC "childless" too

It’s just an expression, is the suffix “less” always pejorative? (Hint: it’s not, and childfree is a stupid phrase)

SeeTe · 03/09/2019 12:21

Tabby, okay and what if they can't have children? It's a lot more 'real' than people like to believe. What if you've caused additional damage by encouraging them to believe their whole life that it will all be dandy and kids are a given?

Just because you enjoyed the experience doesn't mean you should place the expectation on your children.

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SeeTe · 03/09/2019 12:23

if I'm honest I'd think it was because they were so wrapped up in materialistic things, money, relationship, holiday, careers etc to think of sharing that with a child

Confused well then this is surely just an outcome of the situation and society's beliefs that I'm describing. You believe that everyone who doesn't want children must be materialistic and essentially selfish is what you're saying because you believe that normal people would want a child because that's what we've all been told should happen.

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maddening · 03/09/2019 12:25

I think it is people rather than women, men are also raised with the concept of having a family when they grow up. However having children is not a terrible thing.

Tobythecat · 03/09/2019 12:26

I can't understand why people want to bring children into this fucked up world to be honest.

EmeraldShamrock · 03/09/2019 12:26

Yanbu. I've lots of friends who given the oppurtunity on hindsight including myself at time would not have DC. I would he or give them up or change it now but I see life has choices.
I am hoping the next generation is better equip when it comes to choices, my Dniece said she wanted to have a baby when she is 23, I asked why, she said she'd want a baby then, when I reminded her it is not always a baby but a life long human, just as she is about to establish her career.

maddening · 03/09/2019 12:27

Op, animals all go about procreating, I am not sure that it is the creation of our society, more a genetic driver, hence why it is destroying when you have fertility issues.

ShadyLady53 · 03/09/2019 12:28

Oh gosh OP I completely agree with you.

I am 35, single and childless (I would be offended to be called childfree because I wanted children). I posted a thread yesterday about thoughtless comments that strangers have made (i.e Shop lady asking me if my children were back at school yesterday and then saying I was lucky not to have to worry about summer holiday childcare when I replied I didn’t and other strangers over sharing, judging and putting pressure on me).

It’s hard enough having to come to terms with the probability you’ll never have children without added pressure from everyone else. For me, I’ve been waking in the middle of the night since I turned 35 horrified by the fact that the life I so desperately wanted slipped through my fingers.

Looking back the pressure started young. I was encouraged to keep my toys so that I could give them to my own children one day. My “future husband” was spoken about from the age of 7. At 9 my Dad told me he couldn’t wait to buy me the best pram money could afford for his first grandchild. Holding baby cousins and nieces and nephews whilst I was still a child myself, my family would delight in saying how I was “a natural”, “born to be a mother” and proudly tell everyone that I was going to have five children one day (because that’s what I said I wanted when I was 8). Whilst I was at sixth form and not even in a relationship, my mother started talking about future grandchildren and marriage. At 24 I was told that my Mum (who was 39 when I came into the world) needed me to not leave it much later for grandchildren so she could be active with them.

To make it worse I grew up in a religion where finding a husband and having babies (no contraception allowed) was seen as the highest calling. I still see it that way myself if I’m honest. My cousins all married as teens or by 20. Friends had 5 children before the time we turned 30. I hadn’t even been asked on my first date by that age. Single parenthood by choice is/was against the faith and would lead to being ostracised. Our bodies and fertility were seen as prized treasures...I’ve come to mourn every period and feel like every ovulation is wasted.

I know it’s not just conditioning that led me to being in so much pain over being childless. I did really want to be a mother, and I wanted a husband too (but there’s less of a time limit on the latter).

The presumption that everyone ends up with children, or even that they are suited to becoming parents is wrong. Assuming everyone wants them or can have them is wrong.

My experiences have left me suicidal at times. I totally get the notion of feeling like you’ve failed at being a woman.

My experiences may be more extreme due to the religious element but the undercurrent of beliefs does run through secular society or not. Even extremely liberal, Feminist friends can get it wrong, telling me how lucky I am, extolling the virtues of being Childfree, making me feel like I’m ridiculous for feeling pain for the fact that I’d rather be a SAHM right now than a lecturer. It’s just as bad as the extreme views I was brought up with.

Some people don’t want children and don’t have them.

Some people have children they don’t want.

Some people want children and have them.

Some people want children and don’t have them.

There are no shoulds or right ways of doing life. We need to stop perpetuating ideas that are so harmful.

Whilst I agree some men experience all of this too, I highly doubt they have it brought to their attention as much as women do. A single, childless or childfree man is far more likely to be accepted than his female counterpart, in my experience. That fact alone is very wrong.

tentative3 · 03/09/2019 12:28

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SeeTe · 03/09/2019 12:29

However having children is not a terrible thing

I'm not saying it is. I'm saying acting like it's a given that someone will/can/wants to have children is damaging. It creates feelings of failure and embarrassment in people who can't but want to and feelings of judgement in those who can but don't want to.

It's like not being able to accept that some people enjoy different things to you. I like pizza so therefore everyone who doesn't is wrong. No, we are all different, we all want different things, enjoy different things, care about different experiences more than others. It doesn't make anyone selfish or materialistic because they've chosen not to reproduce. You only feel that way because you've been taught that having a child is the thing to do.

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BogglesGoggles · 03/09/2019 12:29

I suppose it’s just that most people do eventually have them. Obviously it’s becoming increasingly common for people to leave it too late, find it too hard to provide, not have children by choice etc. I would imagine that in 20 years or some it will no longer be a safe assumption to make.

SeeTe · 03/09/2019 12:31

Op, animals all go about procreating, I am not sure that it is the creation of our society, more a genetic driver

Of course there's a biological drive element to it. I'm just saying I think people who honestly don't see the additional pressures that other people/society put on reproducing are either in a bubble or don't think about it because it doesn't affect them.

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ShadyLady53 · 03/09/2019 12:32

Don’t know where the random “or not” came from! It was supposed to be “of today” Confused.

ashmts · 03/09/2019 12:33

itwasalovelydreamwhileitlasted What a nasty post. I don't want children although I'm 29 so often get 'oh you'll change your mind when you're older' patronising comments. Judge away bish

MilkTwoSugarsThanks · 03/09/2019 12:33

I'm with @maddening on this one.

We can kick and scream as much as we like about how much "better" we are that the animal kingdom we are part of, but it's all bollocks.

We're here to live long enough to reproduce and nurture our young... and then we die.

We ain't special.

SeeTe · 03/09/2019 12:36

Not saying for a second we are 'special' but we do have the conscious ability to not put unnecessary, unhelpful pressure on our fellow human beings and even more importantly, our children who it could eventually affect very negatively in the future.

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RedPanda2 · 03/09/2019 12:37

I can't imagine why you would actually choose to have children, just as some people can't imagine not having them. I hope society does change. I also hope societys dependance and expectation that the mother will do all or most of the child rearing changes too.