To wish we could stop the societal belief that women will/should have children

[SeeTe]

I've just been saying on another thread how I wish I'd been brought up to be more confident with a life without DC. It's practically embedded into society that women / girls WILL go onto have children, 'when you grow up and have children of your own' etc...

I had a lot of fertility issues when TTC and lost a lot of pregnancies and it got me thinking that the thing that affected me the most was that I had this belief that I wasn't a proper woman because this is what women should do and should be able to do and if I'd not grown in a society where everyone acted as though it was a given that this would happen then I may not have taken it so hard. I couldn't be satisfied with 'just' my life because I'd always thought it would involve children one day and it's just the way your life is supposed to go.

I'm not sure exactly what changes I'd like to make but being through what I have done, I don't want to encourage my child into the way of thinking that I grew up with, 'one day you'll be married and have kids etc.'

I don't even know if I'm making sense but I want my DC to be encouraged that there isn't this one perfect way of life that everyone should follow and if they can't then there's something wrong with them and they'll never have as good of a life without it.

I feel like far too many people take it as a given and pass that belief onto their children when in reality it really isn't guaranteed.

I suppose humans are the only species for which the urge to have sex and the urge to have children can be regarded as separate things.

If you take 'the biological urge to procreate' as meaning the urge to have sexual intercourse, most humans will have felt that, excluding those who are asexual. If you take it as meaning the urge to produce/nurture an infant, it's certainly not an urge I have ever felt.

It's not negative to want those things but it is if it's at the expense of other things. I wonder if a child free person in their old age will regret that they placed those things above having children?

Oh, one of those.

I'm 45 and so far, very thankful I was never tempted to have kids when younger because while I appreciate that parenting is wonderful for many people, it's my idea of hell. They're in your home. They live there. And you can't change your mind. I couldn't stand that.

And there is no way on earth I would sacrifice my happy childfree life now because of the minuscule chance that I might regret that choice when I'm 80.

Has any idiot asked why people without kids are on Mumsnet yet?

The 'children will look after you in your old age' line gets trotted out a lot, but that hardly seems a fair reason to have them - "I'm just putting up with you at the moment, son, because you might come in handy 40 years hence."

Not to mention the possibility that the children might be unable or unwilling to become your carer in later life.

I'm waiting now for someone to pop up on the thread asking why we childfree people are on a site called Mumsnet ... then I think we'll have covered all the standard responses to threads like this!

I just don't think there's many other subjects that people are so assumptive about.

You wouldn't get many people saying 'Oh you're gay? Well you'll change your mind when you meet the right girl'.

How about we just respect people's decisions and stop acting like there is this one right way of living.

I just don't think there's many other subjects that people are so assumptive about.

I’m also single through choice & very happy that way, but I do get similar comments on that sometimes both in RL and on MN. And then there are the people that can’t believe some of us don’t want to learn to drive.

Oh, those of us who don't want to learn to drive are CF who are too lazy to get the bus. Even if we DO get the bus.

I feel sorry for the woman/man who I feel isn't prepared to give up short term pleasures for the lifetime of pleasure that having children brings

I don't understand this opinion at all.

I could say I feel sorry for the woman/man forever burdened to put their child/children before their own needs and sacrifice their health, career and finances, and are missing out on a lifetime of freedom.

Live and let live, but I do find it patronising and condescending to be told I'm felt sorry for when I'm perfectly happy with my life. It implies that you think you have chosen a 'better' path, when in reality it's just a different one.

Yes, I'm a non-driver and people often express surprise and tell me I should learn. Non-drivers get short-shrift on MN because all the drivers seem to assume we are CFs who ask virtual strangers for lifts every five minutes and don't realise that petrol costs money.

Having said that, I'd like to have the aptitude to be able to drive, and I envy those to whom it comes reasonably easily, which is different from how I feel about children - but I'm terrible at it and it terrifies me, so it's safer for all concerned if I stay off the roads.

I actually think that all the sentimental tosh about children bringing a "lifetime of pleasure" does people who do want kids a disservice too. I love being a mother but it's not a lifetime of pleasure. That's not my job and it certainly isn't my kid's job to bring me pleasure. My job is to ensure - in so far as it's within my control - that my child grows up healthy, kind and happy. That involves a lot of tough choices, a lot of days when I have to be the bad guy and a lot of sleepless nights worrying.

I think one of the reasons that the immediate postnatal period is such a horrendous shock is that we all get sold the idea that it's going to be like some perfect glossy advert for babies, and we're going to spend all day blissfully breastfeeding without any difficulties, our babies won't cry for hours for no reason and all we'll want to do all day is gaze adoringly into their eyes. Whereas it's bloody hard work and it gets harder. Completely worth it from my perspective but all the talk of children being little joy bundles who are there to fulfil their parents helps nobody.

I think as parents we are so helicopter-ish and child focused now that everything relating to having kids is sold as hard work, ruins your life etc when that’s not true at all. To be fair this agenda probably suits the current economic and environmental climate in that people are leaving home later, struggling to get jobs and buy houses and generally contributing to the overcrowding on this planet. Most 20 year olds are a long, long way away from being in the position of being able to afford and be responsible for a child. My younger brother is 27 but still lives alone in London, is out every night and I can’t see him having children. Like a lot of people his age he hasn’t matured yet and doesn’t have a settled enough life.

On the other hand I had my first straight out of uni and I’m now 35, career, husband, decent body, hobbies and friends, nice holidays etc which the children are also a part of. The dc add to my life rather than take away from it imo. The ewww, I don’t want snotty nosed brats wrecking my “lifestyle” brigade make me smile a bit. Mine have never held me back. It depends entirely on what you want out of life.

the ewww, I don’t want snotty nosed brats wrecking my “lifestyle” brigade

But that is another misconception about the childfree - that we are all high-flying career women who live in minimalist houses with white carpets, go out socialising several times a week and have lots of expensive holidays.

I don't have a 'lifestyle' to speak of - I rarely go out socialising (maybe once every two months) and I have one self-catering holiday in the UK per year. I have an average sort of job and my house is very shabby because I have pets. Not having children has nothing to do with my lifestyle - I just don't want them, it's as simple as that.

Like a lot of people his age he hasn’t matured yet and doesn’t have a settled enough life

But this is just more of what the OP is talking about.

People without children just aren't mature enough yet or have a settled enough life to have them?

Some people just don't want children. Period. End of. It's nothing to do with maturity or having a settled life. Some people just don't want a child like some people don't want a dog.

Nope, certainly not all people without children, just using my brother as an example .

An average 27 year old of our parents’ generation would be settled, married, established job and probably children. It’s not that easy anymore, our dc are staying at home longer and maturing later as a result of financial and housing restraints.

What I’m trying to say is that a 20 year old woman now saying she doesn’t want children probably can’t imagine herself having children because her life is so far removed from that possibility these days. Making that decision for yourself when you’re older and settled is different. You can’t really imagine if until it happens I suppose.

My younger brother is 27 but still lives alone in London, is out every night and I can’t see him having children. Like a lot of people his age he hasn’t matured yet and doesn’t have a settled enough life.

If he lives alone in London he sounds pretty mature and settled to me - plenty of people house share well into their 30s/40s in London. But why should he ‘mature’ and ‘settle’ by having kids just because society says that’s what you should do? Maybe he’s happy living alone, being single and socialising regularly and wants to keep his life that way for the foreseeable. Why is that bad or a reflection on his maturity?

I have two friends that are very much child-free by choice. One of them has severe health problems that are genetic. That isn't the reason she didn't have kids. She straight up said she's too selfish to have kids. I think that's quite possibly the most self aware and genuinely selfless thing she's ever done in her life.

The other, they just didn't want kids. And good on them, for making a conscious decision NOT to have children, rather than doing it when they didn't really want to, just because it's what you do, and society, family and friends pressure you, both overtly and covertly, to do so.

One of my daughters is very clear, she won't be having children. She's gay, but obviously that's not a barrier. But she doesn't really like kids. She'd rather have animals, ta ever so much. All power to her elbow.

Children deserve to be considered, wanted, loved and cherished. Too many children are born without any realistic expectation of even those basic needs being met.

I didn’t have this at all, my parents were old as fuck when they randomly had me.

I didn’t want kids at all. Then I got pregnant at an early age and thought ah shit happens I’m always up for an adventure. Best adventure ever and now there’s three of the beggars. I’ve never ever felt broody and I’m not massively maternal (although I am softening in my old age)

Having children is embedded in our DNA as a species. That's why the urge is so strong. That some people apply their rational mind to deciding not to have them, for whatever reason

I haven't ever had any urge. I haven't applied "rational thought" and actively decided against some irrational inner feeling because it was never there. I was just never interested in it so got on with life and thing I was interested in.

And I know from places like MN that I'm not alone in that. Please do stop patronising us like this.

I never wanted children so never had one I never needed a car so didn't learn to drive. My choices effect no one, it's meant I can contribute to lots of babysitting, energy to teach full time, activism for better cheaper public transport etc . Very few people I know put active choice making time into having children, they felt it was the done thing. I'm happy by my decisions. And I know lots of people who define their life as being a parent, good for them, but that doesn't invalidate my very conscious decisions.

TheDarkPassenger but if you got pregnant young of course you never experienced this?

Ronne27 Making that decision for yourself when you’re older and settled is different. You can’t really imagine if until it happens I suppose.

But what age do you deem appropriate for making this decision? What magical age do people (women) suddenly obtain the right to make their own decisions and have them respected?

Every time I see a mother with a young child, I think - you selfish bitch - how dare you drag that poor thing into your life!

Yeesh

Every time I see a mother with a young child, I think - you selfish bitch - how dare you drag that poor thing into your life!

I think this was sarcasm. But when I see mothers with young children I do genuinely feel great relief it isn’t me

Oh great. Another parent bashing thread.

It's been a while since the last one, so we were due for one.