To wish we could stop the societal belief that women will/should have children

[SeeTe]

I've just been saying on another thread how I wish I'd been brought up to be more confident with a life without DC. It's practically embedded into society that women / girls WILL go onto have children, 'when you grow up and have children of your own' etc...

I had a lot of fertility issues when TTC and lost a lot of pregnancies and it got me thinking that the thing that affected me the most was that I had this belief that I wasn't a proper woman because this is what women should do and should be able to do and if I'd not grown in a society where everyone acted as though it was a given that this would happen then I may not have taken it so hard. I couldn't be satisfied with 'just' my life because I'd always thought it would involve children one day and it's just the way your life is supposed to go.

I'm not sure exactly what changes I'd like to make but being through what I have done, I don't want to encourage my child into the way of thinking that I grew up with, 'one day you'll be married and have kids etc.'

I don't even know if I'm making sense but I want my DC to be encouraged that there isn't this one perfect way of life that everyone should follow and if they can't then there's something wrong with them and they'll never have as good of a life without it.

I feel like far too many people take it as a given and pass that belief onto their children when in reality it really isn't guaranteed.

Why are we talking about our superiority in the animal kingdom, what relevant does that actually have with this thread at all?

Because I don't believe it's societal pressure to have children. It's "the norm" for the planet. Born - survive long enough to reproduce and get offspring to point of existence without assistance - die.

it's hard for someone who has children to explain to someone who says they don't want one just what being a parent feels like

Because this ^ is essentially saying 'you don't know what you're missing and can't possibly know what you actually want^ because being a parent is so amazing'.

Milk, biologically yes. But still no need for everyone to constantly quiz the person sitting next to them about their reproduction when it's widely known that it can be a painful subject for a lot of people. Surely we're intelligent enough to understand that?

No you don't like OTHER people's children its not the same

itwasalovelydream. Well of course I’m referring to OTHER people’s children as I am childfree. So you think that given I really don’t like children I should have just had one on the offchance! You really are demonstrating baby brain extraordinarily well.

"But I thought it was just more likely and a turn of phrase? And no pressure..."

As I've said...a lot depends on how often it is said, what age you are when it is said etc etc in your case, it sounded like your parents say it a lot to you now and I'm guessing you are of childbearing age so that's an entirely different thing . I said it a couple of times to my children over the years, and no harms been done. It's usually when we've been laughing at something I've done and I've said something like ..well when you have children, you can choose to do x, y or z. In that sort if situation, you cant say years later that there was pressure. In yours perhaps there is, I dont know, I'm not in your situation and haven't heard how its said.

Even some people who do have children regret their choice. If I had a £ for every patronising bugger who told me I was lucky not to have children, how they’d ruined their lives/careers/bodies/sexdrives/finances etc and how if they’d had their time over they would “do what I’ve done”, i’d have a pretty full piggy bank.

Even the person above who said they’ve told their niece it’s best not to have children at 23 isn’t doing them the favour they think they are. A child born to a 23year old mother doesn’t mean the end of a career! They’ll be at school by the time they are 27, plenty of time left to work their way up a ladder and the earning potential in the mother’s late 30s and 40s is excellent.

We need to stop trying to dictate how other women should live their lives. They are all valid choices (or in my case circumstances). Why judge at all? You’ve had or not had your kids, what business is it of yours what other people do?

@Jengacritical
Women's survival?
I earn more than three times my DH
I have had life threatening incidences but the end result was 100 times over worth the journey
No damage to career - perhaps after having DC I'm a little less ambitious which is my own choice than I was probably because I want to get home for dinner and bedtime and not spend it in the office
Cost of living is what you make it
I don't feel disempowered by being a mother

Fine if you don't want children that's your CHOICE just as it is mine to have one. It's clear from this thread that parents get
Judged as being unambitious and apparently unintelligent just as Im allowed to have my own thoughts about them

I don't get the whole materialism argument. My life has become 200 per cent more materialistic since I had a child because they generate plastic tat, even if you refuse to buy it yourself.

Personally, I bloody love being a mother. Not all mothers feel like that. In my view, you get a more honest view of the prevalence of parenting regrets by asking the (grown-up) kids. There's a powerful taboo against saying "I regret motherhood" but I've met plenty of adults who were made aware behind closed doors that they were the regrettable result of the failure of the hot-bath-with-gin method, or who were told by their mothers "don't ruin your life by having kids like I ruined mine".

It's a romantic/ sexual partner, of either sex, that doesn't interest me, anymore than golf club membership interests me. I get heartily sick of people assuming that I don't understand love or that I must be incomplete without Mr Right, so I can't begin to imagine how annoying it must be for childfree people.

Fine if you don't want children that's your CHOICE

Great. She’s got it at last,

yeah we're all entitled to our opinions, my opinion is that your opinion was stupid and nasty @itwasalovelydreamwhileitlasted

I call women who have chosen not to have children 'childfree' and those like myself who couldn't have them 'childless'.

You're absolutely right OP. I knew from a fairly young age that I would not be able to have children but it seems so inconceivable to some that a woman can lead a happy and fulfilled life without having a child that people persisted with saying that they were sure it would all work out and I would have them when I was older. So stupid.

I would also like to see a change in some women who believe that they cannot exist without a man in their life. No matter how shitty or abusive they have multiple babies while clinging on grimly because the alternative - not having a man - is a fate worse than death. They eventually get dumped and then lurch to the next one. Obviously it is wonderful being in a loving relationship but if he is an abusive arsehole, being single is a thousand times better. It really saddens me when I read posts from women like this.

"But I thought it was just more likely and a turn of phrase? And no pressure? In all seriousness, I just roll my eyes and say I'm not having them (again) because it doesn't bother or upset me. HOWEVER were I TTC I'd find it gutwrenching. So there's your potential harm. And why people shouldn't make assumptions. Your children are presumably tiny so you don't see it that way but time passes and it'll be hard to change your language, I'd be surprised if you're not still saying this when they're in their 20s. Just stop it, please"

They are already close to their 20's. As I've said, it's something I've said years ago. No harms been done. Yes it wouldn't be nice if they were trying to conceive. I'd hope I'd be able to make a sensible assumption about these things, such as if they were in a stable relationship. Common sense usually prevails . It's not hard to change your language at all, you take each situation as it comes.

Don't forget the small but significant minority of people that have children then deeply regret it ever afterwards. Many of these people have had children because they feel they should, or went sure so decided to give it a go before it was too late.

If not having children was a universally acceptable choice then there would be less pressure on people who are not sure to 'give it a go' is it better to not have a child or risk having one who is regretted.

@itwasalovelydreamwhileitlasted

I know exactly how it feels to be a parent, I have been one, I brought up a two year old for eight years as a step parent to a child with a hopeless mother, a mother who hated parenting. I did a wonderful job and he grew into a lovely child, and then I left his father as I was no longer in love with him.

However, I didn’t enjoy any part of parenting, it was thankless, relentless drudgery. I am now in a very happy marriage, I have a wonderful fulfilled child free life. I decided after my experience of being a parent that I didn’t ever want to have children. I am now 45 and have never regretted that decision, in fact I am grateful every day when I wake up with my lovely DH in my peaceful happy home. Yes we have money, a beautiful home, a great career and travel regularly, but I would have still had those things if I’d had children.

The thing is, you don’t know my experience of being me and living my life, just as I don’t know yours of being a parent.

I do know you are a clueless idiot though.

I would never say to someone's face that I judged them for CHOOSING not to have children but at the back of my mind if I'm honest I'd think it was because they were so wrapped up in materialistic things, money, relationship, holiday, careers etc to think of sharing that with a child

Fine if you don't want children that's your CHOICE just as it is mine to have one. It's clear from this thread that parents get
Judged as being unambitious and apparently unintelligent just as Im allowed to have my own thoughts about them

Oh I’m judging you alright. Not because of your decision to have children but because you think other women deserve your contempt for not making the same decisions as you, or your pity for not having the same experiences as you. You can take your contempt and your pity and shove it in your ear hole thanks, because it’s not wanted by this materialistic fucker. Oh, and just in case you weren’t aware, some (bloody wonderful) women who are desperate for children tell people like you that they don’t want any, simply because their fertility issues are of none of anyone else’s fucking business.

Fine if you don't want children that's your CHOICE

Oh, thanks!

Oh, and just in case you weren’t aware, some (bloody wonderful) women who are desperate for children tell people like you that they don’t want any, simply because their fertility issues are of none of anyone else’s fucking business.

Yes, absolutely this!

Don't forget the small but significant minority of people that have children then deeply regret it ever afterwards. Many of these people have had children because they feel they should, or went sure so decided to give it a go before it was too late

BOTH my parents advised me not to have children when I was growing up!

I feel sorry for the woman/man who I feel isn't prepared to give up short term pleasures for the lifetime of pleasure that having children brings

And that's the con right there. As evidenced on many, many MN threads, children most certainly do NOT provide a "lifetime of pleasure".

I have two DC and have regretted it at times. I love them but the hardships definitely outweigh the benefits for me.

I wholeheartedly agree with you OP. Not having children simply never occurred to me - and this was purely due to conditioning. I'm from a very catholic country with a high birth rate and it was essentially our womanly duty to procreate. I will not be instilling such nonsense in my DDs head.

I wish I had realised that having DC was an option not a definite. Perhaps I still would have gone ahead but at least it would have been with my eyes open and my expectations reasonable.

I would never say to someone's face that I judged them for CHOOSING not to have children but at the back of my mind if I'm honest I'd think it was because they were so wrapped up in materialistic things, money, relationship, holiday, careers etc to think of sharing that with a child

I would never say something to someone’s face but I genuinely feel sorry for people who have children because they feel that something was missing from their life. How tragic to have to breed to fill a void. And how cruel to bring a child in to an awful world because you/your marriage is not enough.

@Sn0tnose
Your post was much more contemptuous and aggressive in tone than any of mine

I have had fertility issues but Im honest about them and Never felt the need to hide by saying it was because I didn't want children

This is a discussion board but as so often I see on MN conflicting options aren't liked especially when they are not in support of what is often minority opinion.

What people on this thread wanted it seems is for everyone to post "of course it's yours choice" of "of course no one judges" "of course we shouldn't tell our children to have their own kids one day" - fact is the majority of people want and enjoy being parents and most of us parents would like to see our own children experience that one day

@TheCatsACunt
Who is judging who now? I didn't have DC because I didn't feel I or my marriage was good enough! We had DC because we felt they would enrich our lives and we could provide a lovely life for a child and for US it was a natural progression to become (or try to become) parents

I didn’t say you did, @itwasalovelydreamwhileitlasted, no need for all the projecting.

But you had children for selfish reasons. Everyone does. There’s no unselfish reason for having a child. Ultimately, you had children because YOU wanted them and felt YOUR life needed enrichment.

Having a child is the best thing I ever did and I will encourage my child to have DC, if they don’t then that’s fine, I won’t love them any less nor will they have failed in anyway but the desire to continue my family line forward, in the way that I have loved my GP’s and parents is totally natural.

I will encourage my DC to live their lives to the full, embracing whatever they want, hoping that they are happy, especially after I have gone.

I think the societal attitude towards having children is damaging in many ways. It makes people like me who can't have children feel like a failure and then those who do have them or don't want them both end up judged in one way or another.

My friend bitterly regrets having children. She says to me it is the worst decision she ever made. It has damaged her marriage, her mental health and her career. She says she feels very much she cannot ever express this because of the pervasive attitude that children enhance your life. She also hates that once you have them you become the mother and somehow having any personal wants or desires becomes completely selfish and your motherhood becomes your defining characteristic.

I see this in my own family. My nieces and nephews are young and there is already talk about who they will marry and what their children will be like. I once dared to mention they may not want children or marriage and was told I couldn't possibly understand as I don't have children of my own.