To wish we could stop the societal belief that women will/should have children

[SeeTe]

I've just been saying on another thread how I wish I'd been brought up to be more confident with a life without DC. It's practically embedded into society that women / girls WILL go onto have children, 'when you grow up and have children of your own' etc...

I had a lot of fertility issues when TTC and lost a lot of pregnancies and it got me thinking that the thing that affected me the most was that I had this belief that I wasn't a proper woman because this is what women should do and should be able to do and if I'd not grown in a society where everyone acted as though it was a given that this would happen then I may not have taken it so hard. I couldn't be satisfied with 'just' my life because I'd always thought it would involve children one day and it's just the way your life is supposed to go.

I'm not sure exactly what changes I'd like to make but being through what I have done, I don't want to encourage my child into the way of thinking that I grew up with, 'one day you'll be married and have kids etc.'

I don't even know if I'm making sense but I want my DC to be encouraged that there isn't this one perfect way of life that everyone should follow and if they can't then there's something wrong with them and they'll never have as good of a life without it.

I feel like far too many people take it as a given and pass that belief onto their children when in reality it really isn't guaranteed.

I agree but I really think this is already happening. All of my closest friends are childfree, all by choice except one, and none of us have felt undue pressure about it. People ask, especially when you get married, but nobody seems surprised or disapproving when you say nope, not having them. In fact, I get more positive responses than negative or neutral.

Nobody in their right mind thinks it's a given. Of course some people can't have children, they know that. I had mine late in life, I wondered whether I would be lucky enough to have them. I haven't caused any damage to my children by saying "when you have children..."....that's just silly.

Why don't you say "if you have children of your own" then, if you know it's not a given?

It's quite easy to say 'I never felt any pressure' when you've successfully done the thing in question

See, I disagree with you on this. I came from a very traditional, Catholic family where girls were raised to be mothers and housewives and martyr themselves for their offspring.

Sometimes, you just are so strong in your own convictions that comments don’t become criticisms because you don’t allow yourself to think of them as such. Now, how you communicate with conviction can be the difficult thing.

I’ve had a lot of comments over the years but deal with them either with smart/humorous comments, or a head tilt with a straight out “wow, that’s a personal question. Why do you want to know?”- depending on who asks/how I’m feeling.

For me, I found I had to change my own language to hammer home the fact that it wasn’t going to happen. Instead of saying something like “this is why we haven’t had children”, I’ll now say “this is why we never had children”. Small difference, but it does send a clear message.

I definitely identify as childfree and not childless! It truly is the most fabulous life. DH and I are currently travelling and having adventure after adventure. People are a bit stunned when they find out we don’t want children and are always sure we’ll change our minds (DH has had a vasectomy). To be honest I’m stunned that people optionally choose to have children! It just seems exhausting and horrible. I can’t fathom why anyone would choose that life over what I have. It just seems absurd to me.

100%. It helps no one.

I feel sorry for the woman/man who I feel isn't prepared to give up short term pleasures for the lifetime of pleasure that having children brings

Oh wheesht. I think a lifetime of parenthood sounds fucking awful, and I think children are irritating and always sticky and I can't stand it.

Get off your high horse, this is exactly the problem OP is referring to.

I’ll give you an example of how hard of thinking some are. I went to a fundraising lunch as the charity representative. All yummy mummies and much younger than me. Introduced to one who immediately asked me how many children I had. I told her none. Her eyes widened, her voice shot up an octave and she shrieked ‘what, none at all?’ I made a great show of turning and looking over each shoulder then turning back to say to her, ‘no, apparently not’.

I feel sorry for the woman/man who I feel isn't prepared to give up short term pleasures for the lifetime of pleasure that having children brings

Oh wheesht. I think a lifetime of parenthood sounds fucking awful, and I think children are irritating and always sticky and I can't stand it. Get off your high horse, this is exactly the problem OP is referring to

Same!! It can’t think of anything worse than a lifetime of parenthood. Being childfree you’re able to design the life you want, being a parent comes with too many restrictions. You only get one life, I don’t want to spend it putting someone else’s every need first. And as we have all seen from MN, parenthood is a life sentence. It doesn’t end when the kid hits 18 or 21 or moves out or gets married or has their own children. They burden of responsibility and the issues continue on and on and on.

To be honest, isn't literally everything we do selfish?

Having kids is selfish because either people "want" them because of an urge, or feel like their life is pootling along pointlessly and is missing something, so have kids to enhance their lives.

Not having kids is selfish because you want to maintain the life you have and not sacrifice it.

Even volunteering is fucking selfish because you're only doing it to make yourself feel better and "fulfilled". Like in that episode of Friends, there's no such thing as a selfless kind deed....

I've felt a lot of societal pressure, mainly my family making horrible comments about being childfree (see other comments thread) - so now I don't know how much of wanting a baby is me and how much is just resigning to everyone's expectations that I should have one.

If I truly thought of my future possible child, and put myself in their shoes - would I want to be alive in this world today? No. You get dumped in childcare, bullied at school, made to buy plastic tat and CONSUME even though you don't want to but because the economy is set up that way, then slave away 9-5 in a corporate office till you go to a home and die.

What a life eh!

Having kids is selfish because either people "want" them because of an urge, or feel like their life is pootling along pointlessly and is missing something, so have kids to enhance their lives. Not having kids is selfish because you want to maintain the life you have and not sacrifice it

I think it’s much more selfish to have a child than not to because another person’s life is created and impacted by that decision. The choice not to have children only impacts the individual making the decision.

I think even if your parents say when you grow up and have your own kids ... if you don't want a child ..that won't make you feel you have to have them.

It's like parents may say when you get married... it doesnt mean they must get married. I know ppl who have not got married or had a decent relationship that came anywhere close to marriage and they're now late 40s and 50+.

I think there's a great deal of sensitivity around infertility and it feels like some of those who have struggled are looking to blame other women, their partners or society at large.

Ppl will do what they want to do in the end.

Loving some of the intellectual and insightful comments on this thread.

On a nurturing note, I want to love and nurture every cat and dog I see. I love every one of them, it feels completely automatic and innate.

I've sometimes wondered if that's how some people feel about children. Actual children leave me cold in general.

@Bouffalant

In my friendship group we are all married but only a few of us have children, it's not been a big deal to be honest. One couple unfortunately didn't have a choice in the matter, but the others did and we all have fulfilling lives. I have been fortunate enough that if I didn't want children (I was a bit indifferent growing up to be honest) then I wouldn't have felt pressured into it. As long as you and your partner are on the same page so one or the other isn't feeling pressure or resentment then it shouldn't matter. I know that's not how it works though! There was a podcast series discussing this not long ago, I'll try and find what it was, it was quite interesting and they were discussing how to help change societal pressures.

I'm waiting now for someone to pop up on the thread asking why we childfree people are on a site called Mumsnet ... then I think we'll have covered all the standard responses to threads like this!

@SeeTe I agree with you, I think people should choose their words far more carefully and we should be working towards getting rid of this expectation, which happens right from when a baby girl is small, that all women will have children. I came to this realisation myself a few years ago and since then, have been careful to say to my daughters "If you have a child when you're older", rather than when.

I do believe that there are some people who choose not to have children for 'selfish' reasons (liking materialistic things, not wanting to give up their current lifestyle etc.), as my sister has recently made this decision for similar reasons. She is 37 and her partner is 30, but they have recently decided not to TTC as they enjoy their current lifestyle and my sister says she enjoys her sleep too much! She's also the main earner (by around 3X), so a maternity leave would have a big impact on them financially. Personally, I think she's also a little worried that she might have trouble TTC, as she's very overweight and suffers from PCOS. However, she is excellent with children, has 6 God children and is a wonderful Auntie to our 2 girls, so she does like children - she just doesn't feel that she wants to have her own, and I glad that although the societal pressure is there, she doesn't feel obligated to have them.

On a nurturing note, I want to love and nurture every cat and dog I see. I love every one of them, it feels completely automatic and innate. I've sometimes wondered if that's how some people feel about children. Actual children leave me cold in general

Literally me!!

On a nurturing note, I want to love and nurture every cat and dog I see. I love every one of them, it feels completely automatic and innate. I've sometimes wondered if that's how some people feel about children. Actual children leave me cold in general

This. I smile glowingly at every dog I see on the street, even the borky ones. Children I only notice if they're screaming, which sets my teeth on edge, or I'm about to fall over them

Me and DP often joke that we're far more interested in people's dogs than their children. I'd much sooner 'aww' at a dog walking down the street than a child 😁

Having children is embedded in our DNA as a species. That's why the urge is so strong. That some people apply their rational mind to deciding not to have them, for whatever reason, is fine. I am getting pissed off with the new fangled idea one hears now that children are a "lifestyle choice", it really gets up my nose.

Op, animals all go about procreating, I am not sure that it is the creation of our society, more a genetic driver

As ever, things are more complicated than that. There are certain pack animals (I'm thinking wolves and wild dogs) where only the 'alpha couple' reproduce; the others don't come into season and work for the pack rather than their 'own' family. And of course bees and wasps are another matter altogether.

I'm wondering if we're starting to move towards a society where only certain couples have the means to reproduce.

I get it. OP isn't talking about the biological urge to procreate that I'm sure none of us can deny exists. They are talking about people who feel the need to openly pressurise and make assumptions about other people and what they should/shouldn't do. It is a societal issue, not solely no but it is there.

I honestly don't know how anyone can deny that there isn't any pressure at all on people, women especially, to have children. It doesn't have to be direct but just by the way people talk and judge. As seen on this thread.

I don't have kids, nor any plans for any (am 38) and I've never felt that it was my role or calling, or that I am not a "proper woman". Nor have I ever felt any pressure from society to have them.

I don't really have experience of what you're suggesting.

As an aside, I really dislike most animals and do not see the point in pets. I feel that makes me more of a pariah than not wanting kids, if I'm honest.