To wish we could stop the societal belief that women will/should have children

[SeeTe]

I've just been saying on another thread how I wish I'd been brought up to be more confident with a life without DC. It's practically embedded into society that women / girls WILL go onto have children, 'when you grow up and have children of your own' etc...

I had a lot of fertility issues when TTC and lost a lot of pregnancies and it got me thinking that the thing that affected me the most was that I had this belief that I wasn't a proper woman because this is what women should do and should be able to do and if I'd not grown in a society where everyone acted as though it was a given that this would happen then I may not have taken it so hard. I couldn't be satisfied with 'just' my life because I'd always thought it would involve children one day and it's just the way your life is supposed to go.

I'm not sure exactly what changes I'd like to make but being through what I have done, I don't want to encourage my child into the way of thinking that I grew up with, 'one day you'll be married and have kids etc.'

I don't even know if I'm making sense but I want my DC to be encouraged that there isn't this one perfect way of life that everyone should follow and if they can't then there's something wrong with them and they'll never have as good of a life without it.

I feel like far too many people take it as a given and pass that belief onto their children when in reality it really isn't guaranteed.

MangoFeverDream childless seems to be used to make ppl feel 'less than' whereas I can have children but I choose not to

RedPanda of course that must mean you are materialistic and selfish sigh

"Tabby, okay and what if they can't have children? It's a lot more 'real' than people like to believe. What if you've caused additional damage by encouraging them to believe their whole life that it will all be dandy and kids are a given"

Nobody in their right mind thinks it's a given. Of course some people can't have children, they know that. I had mine late in life, I wondered whether I would be lucky enough to have them. I haven't caused any damage to my children by saying "when you have children..."....that's just silly.

@itwasalovelydreamwhileitlasted

'I really struggle with this whole subject as surely there is an element that people are "child free" by choice because they want to maintain/can't imagine giving up their current lifestyle

The only child free people I know are those that couldn't conceive as well. Or they are ones who said for years they didn't want them only to change their minds in their late 30s and then couldn't get pregnant and bitterly regretted it

I would never say to someone's face that I judged them for CHOOSING not to have children but at the back of my mind if I'm honest I'd think it was because they were so wrapped up in materialistic things, money, relationship, holiday, careers etc to think of sharing that with a child'

What a load of shit. I have literally never wanted children, from as early as I can remember, and I'm nearly 53 and I've never regretted it even once. I have also not really had money, a materialistic lifestyle, a career, or other such things you sneered at, to give up. I just plain and simple did not want children. Why can't you take this choice at face value?

It isn't silly... I'm a real person who had real fertility issues, who experienced real effects from similar comments.

I'm sure my parents said the same to me, I wouldnt have held it against them if I hadn't been able to have kids. There was never any expectation, but a hope, I suppose, that I would.

@tentative3 @ashmts
I don't see why I'm an arse??
I was being honest about what I would think.....we are all entitled to our opinions however they might be formed. You are entitled to say you don't want children I'm just being honest about what my reaction would be to that

Don't ask a forum of strangers for their thoughts on something if you are not prepared to hear conflicting opinions

A lot of people come on MN for validation of their own opinions and don't like it when someone says they don't agree

We are all adults here supposedly

And your way of thinking is part of the problem itwasalovelydream.

to think of sharing that with a child

It's almost like you feel sorry for a hypothetical child missing out on their hypothetical parents lifestyle. Odd.

And Tabby, I don't hold it against my parents, it's the 'done' thing by a lot of people because no one thinks about it until it personally affects them.

Why can't you take this choice at face value?

Because people aren't allowed to differ from what is considered the 'norm' without judgement from small minded people.

I would never say to someone's face that I judged them for CHOOSING not to have children but at the back of my mind if I'm honest I'd think it was because they were so wrapped up in materialistic things, money, relationship, holiday, careers etc to think of sharing that with a child

DP and I have been together for nearly a decade, getting married soon. We do not intend to have children.

In your comment above it sounds a bit like the introvert/extrovert situation, where sometimes extroverts cannot understand that introverts don't find things like parties/socialising/meeting people fun.

You cannot comprehend someone not wanting children, because you DO want children.

There are many many reasons why we don't intend to have children:

• We don't think we'd be good at it
• We don't enjoy being around children
• We would definitely not enjoy child friendly activities - parties/games/groups/playdates/school things
• We love our independance, travelling, going out for meals, seeing the world - to us a child would only create obstacles to the things we enjoy.
• We both enjoy reading and watching films, mostly quiet pursuits, lie ins, wine,
• We both like A LOT of our own space
• We both need A LOT of quiet time
• We have both had complex mental health issues that have really knocked us at times, and cannot even imagine having to look after additional people for whom we would be responsible
• This country is a disgrace, global warming and deforestation, overpopulation, political war, melting ice, mass displacement of refugees, failing economy..I won't go on. The world is a scary and sad place right now.

If we don't ENJOY being around children, have no longings to have them, and would have to change all of the things we love about our lifestyle, why would we have children? Why? We are for the most part so happy together and in love and enjoying our lives together, and we are pretty sure that we would not enjoy being a parent. So why would we?

I would never say to someone's face that I judged them for CHOOSING not to have children but at the back of my mind if I'm honest I'd think it was because they were so wrapped up in materialistic things, money, relationship, holiday, careers etc to think of sharing that with a child

What an absolute twat of a comment.

We are also not materialistic, don't have great careers, have a small house, don't have a flash car, don't place huge value on "belongings".

animals all go about procreating, I am not sure that it is the creation of our society, more a genetic driver

So why do some people, including myself, have absolutely no desire to have children? Also, if the urge to procreate is so strong, why are some people attracted to members of the same sex, who they cannot procreate with?

I also love it when people say 'I'd never say this to someone' and the proceeds to say offensive, twatty shit, to SOMEONE. Just because we can't see each other doesn't mean we aren't real people.

itwasalovelydreamwhileitlasted But why is it a negative to want money, holidays, sleep, a career, or anything else that you've implied is selfish? It's not like I'm feeding my child bread and water so I can jet off to Hawaii. No child loses out by me not having one. There is no child. Slightly ridiculous hyperbole but do you have a dog? A cat? Ten dogs? Why not? Money/time constraints? You don't like them? You've literally backed up OP's point, why should people be expected to have children?

TabbyMumz My parents still often say to me 'when you have children' despite me not wanting them. It gets very wearing.

@SeeTe
MY way is also that shared the majority I suspect since people with children outnumber those that don't

I don't feel sorry for the hypothetical child I feel sorry for the woman/man who I feel isn't prepared to give up short term pleasures for the lifetime of pleasure that having children brings

I would never say to someone's face that I judged them for CHOOSING to have children but at the back of my mind if I'm honest I'd think it was because they didn't have the intelligence or the ambition to think of doing anything else with their lives

Now doesn't that sound offensive eh itwas...

I feel sorry for the woman/man who I feel isn't prepared to give up short term pleasures for the lifetime of pleasure that having children brings

Oh, and feel sorry for me all you like, I feel sorry for YOU because you are so baby blinkered to realise that countless children are born into a life of neglect because their parents were NOT having a lifetime of pleasure.

MY way is also that shared the majority

Which is the exact problem... Thank you for demonstrating it so well though.

I think it's common for parents to say to their children "when you have children...", rather than "if" you have children, as it's more balanced and likely that they will, than they wont....just a turn of phrase. I sure its not felt at the time that there is any pressure. As for society putting on pressure, I dont think the next person gives 2 hoots as to whether someone procreates or not. I'd never as anyone questions like "when are you going to make so and so a Grandmother", I think that's rude.I think thats more the older generation who is likely to say that though.

since people with children outnumber those that don't

Oh and not all people with children are judgemental twits who fail to appreciate that not everyone wants the same thing out of life.

I sure its not felt at the time that there is any pressure

Well quite clearly it can be as evidenced by me and others on this thread who have felt pressurised in adult life because of it.

What if you've caused additional damage by encouraging them to believe their whole life that it will all be dandy and kids are a given?

What’s the way around this? I’m from a big family, my parents had as many as they wanted when they wanted them, they were very lucky.

I wanted handfuls of them and after the difficulties we’ve had consider myself hugely fortunate to have one as I expect that’ll be it. My mum’s lack of fertility issues didn’t mean I assumed it would be the same for me, as a child we knew people who’d been through miscarriages, ectopics, still births, cot deaths, child deaths, serious disabilities in their children. Sure I didn’t think any of that would happen to me - who ever does?! But I knew it wasn’t plain sailing for everyone. No one told me it was. I don’t know how you’d prepare people, especially those who want to be parents, that it can be very bloody difficult. It wouldn’t stop them anyway.

I feel sorry for the woman/man who I feel isn't prepared to give up short term pleasures for the lifetime of pleasure that having children brings

But I like my life, and I don't like children or enjoy spending time with children. The thought of having a child makes me recoil. So having a child wouldn't bring me a life of pleasure, because I don't want one.

It's like telling someone who hates animals to get a dog. Why would they get one if they don't like them and don't want one.

My parents still often say to me 'when you have children' despite me not wanting them. It gets very wearing.

Then you need to tell them to stop.