To wish we could stop the societal belief that women will/should have children

[SeeTe]

I've just been saying on another thread how I wish I'd been brought up to be more confident with a life without DC. It's practically embedded into society that women / girls WILL go onto have children, 'when you grow up and have children of your own' etc...

I had a lot of fertility issues when TTC and lost a lot of pregnancies and it got me thinking that the thing that affected me the most was that I had this belief that I wasn't a proper woman because this is what women should do and should be able to do and if I'd not grown in a society where everyone acted as though it was a given that this would happen then I may not have taken it so hard. I couldn't be satisfied with 'just' my life because I'd always thought it would involve children one day and it's just the way your life is supposed to go.

I'm not sure exactly what changes I'd like to make but being through what I have done, I don't want to encourage my child into the way of thinking that I grew up with, 'one day you'll be married and have kids etc.'

I don't even know if I'm making sense but I want my DC to be encouraged that there isn't this one perfect way of life that everyone should follow and if they can't then there's something wrong with them and they'll never have as good of a life without it.

I feel like far too many people take it as a given and pass that belief onto their children when in reality it really isn't guaranteed.

I really struggle with this whole subject as surely there is an element that people are "child free" by choice because they want to maintain/can't imagine giving up their current lifestyle

Why do you ‘really struggle’? How does someone’s decision to not have children exercise your mind to this extent? I’m childfree because I don’t like children. With very few exceptions I find them at best boring, at worst irritating and unpleasant. Nothing at all to do with sacrificing my lifestyle.

Anne, in my mind it's by stopping saying things like 'when you have children one day', 'when you do get married one day', 'when are you making me a grandmother', 'when are you having kids'.

As someone said upthread, why not just say 'if you choose to have children one day' etc...

Obviously not everyone experienced this in childhood but I certainly did and I certainly still experience it now as an adult from other people.

@ashmts
It's not negative to want those things but it is if it's at the expense of other things. I wonder if a child free person in their old age will regret that they placed those things above having children?

it's hard for someone who has children to explain to someone who says they don't want one just what being a parent feels like

Like saying to a young gay man that he just hasn't met the right girl yet?

I'm not sure I've ever experienced direct pressure from anyone around me, but I agree that being a parent is seen as the "default setting" which is whack when you think how many parents do an absolutely diabolical job of it and how it's basically one of very few "permanent" commitments you make.

As a result I'd say I've definitely come across huge amounts of assumption and implied expectation that I would have kids at some stage.

Not saying for a second we are 'special' but we do have the conscious ability to not put unnecessary, unhelpful pressure on our fellow human beings and even more importantly, our children who it could eventually affect very negatively in the future.

So you are saying we're "special". We have this wonderful conscious ability to do something that goes against bog-standard animal instinct.

I still call bullshit unless you're Dr Dolittle and can talk to the animals.

(The bullshit is not you personally bullshitting OP - it's aimed at this whole idea of the human race's alleged superiority.)

@AlexaAmbidextra

No you don't like OTHER people's children its not the same

it's hard for someone who has children to explain to someone who says they don't want one just what being a parent feels like

You really don't need to patronisingly explain to someone what having kids is like and why you feel they are missing out. They.Dont.Want.Any.

It's exactly like telling someone they just don't understand how amazing having a dog is when they are trying to tell you they really dislike dogs and don't want one. Why is it so hard to accept people feel differently to you?

It's a very blinkered and small view on life IMO.

@itwasalovelydreamwhileitlasted

Have you seen the many posts on MN over time by people saying that knowing what they do now if they could go back in time they would not have had children? I've seen a few even recently.

Not everyone feels the same as you. Not everyone wants children. And some people having had them are not sure now whether if they had their time again they would have them.

What YOU FEEL and what is true are not exclusively the same thing.

Isn't wanting children just as selfish as not wanting them?

"Waiting for the parent to pop along to explain to us that we don’t know what love or fulfilment are if we’re childfree. It won’t be long. 🙄"

"it's hard for someone who has children to explain to someone who says they don't want one just what being a parent feels like"

Ding ding ding, we have a winner oh ffs

itwasalovelydreamwhileitlasted Euch. Old age regrets aren't a reason for anything. I might not make it to 70, 60, 50, 40. Just cos you think children are great doesn't mean everyone does, I don't see what you're not getting?

it's hard for someone who has children to explain to someone who says they don't want one just what being a parent feels like

But you're projecting how parenthood makes you feel onto everyone else. There are threads on here where people have said they regret having children/ would not do it again. There are things outside your control which mean that even though you may love your Dc, parenthood brings huge amounts of worry, stress and sadness (you're only as happy as your most unhappy child).

Why are we talking about our superiority in the animal kingdom, what relevant does that actually have with this thread at all?

I acknowledge that there is a biological element to wanting children, of course there is.

I'm saying what we don't have to do is pressure and judge everyone else for not feeling the same way as us and that we do have the ability to bloody think before we speak.

@SeeTe
Why is it so hard to accept people feel differently to you

I could also say the same. Like I said before we are all entitled to our opinions

I've heard so many people who think they are able to ask those without children if they want them, why not, when will you have them etc. This could include questioning those who have made a positive choice not to have children but also those struggling with fertility issues, who may have lost pregnancies and others who simply haven't found the partner they would want to have children with. It amazes me when you hear them blundering through what could be incredibly sensitive areas of people's lives, oblivious, because they are happy (or not) with the choice they made to have children.

Thankfully I'm pretty much at the age now where any queries will drop off but I've had to still struggle with trying to think whether I genuinely didn't wish to have children or if this was a defence I put up knowing that I was in no position to do so. Societal pressure is so strong but I'm happy to remain childfree and have enough friends without children to feel 'normal' - which I absolutely should do. The main thing should be to support everyone for their choices

I generally ask people if they are an uncle or aunt instead of asking if they have children. People who have children then look at you a bit funny and say yes quickly but I also have X children and people who do not have children generally like being an uncle/aunt. I love being an aunt.

I don't feel sorry for the hypothetical child I feel sorry for the woman/man who I feel isn't prepared to give up short term pleasures for the lifetime of pleasure that having children brings

Bingo! Thank you itwasalovelydream for fulfilling my prediction upthread. What ‘you feel’ has no relevance whatsoever to my childfree life. So save your sympathy for someone who wants it.

SeeTe

"I sure its not felt at the time that there is any pressure

Well quite clearly it can be as evidenced by me and others on this thread who have felt pressurised in adult life because of it."

I think that depends on how often it is said, when it is said, the tone in which it is said, and what other things are said. At other times it might be counteracted with different phrases. I think if people dont want children and are secure in their decision, they shouldn't be worried what other people think. I'm sure any parent ultimately wants their child to be happy. You only get one life, so I think if I couldn't have children, I'd do my utmost to not let things like what parents may or may not have said to me as a child worry me. Life's too short. You cant spend your life apportioning blame.

I could also say the same

Well no because I'm actually quite open to accepting people's reasons for enjoying parenthood or not wanting to be a parent at all without judgement. Unlike you.

@ashmts
Where I have said that you don't know what love and fulfilment feels like???

I said it's hard to explain what parenthood feels like

The world has changed, I don’t think it’s about giving up on little luxuries to have kids any longer, but more that having children is now detrimental to people’s (particularly women’s) survival. We’re child free by choice, the reasons being:

• significant possibility of birth injury and PMD in this country (see huge incidence of pelvic organ prolapse for e.g.), as well as the disempowerment of women who become mothers
• career damage (I’m the significant earner, more than double my husband’s salary in what’s now a precarious industry thanks to Brexit)
• cost of living now so high I would have to go back to work within a year if not less, despite, in my opinion, this not being in the best interests of my hypothetical child (see outcomes of trials into childcare outside the home, attachment theory, current state of the education system etc)
• climate change and global political volatility

None of these are to do with material things, or even necessarily not wanting children, more that I will not bring children into the world that I cannot give what I believe to be the best upbringing. If we had better health outcomes for pregnancy and birth, protection against career damage, and the ability to stay at home for at least the first 2 years of a child’s life, I’d have children tomorrow. As it stands, I won’t be having any.

TabbyMumz Then you need to tell them to stop.

But I thought it was just more likely and a turn of phrase? And no pressure? In all seriousness, I just roll my eyes and say I'm not having them (again) because it doesn't bother or upset me. HOWEVER were I TTC I'd find it gutwrenching. So there's your potential harm. And why people shouldn't make assumptions. Your children are presumably tiny so you don't see it that way but time passes and it'll be hard to change your language, I'd be surprised if you're not still saying this when they're in their 20s. Just stop it, please.

I think if people dont want children and are secure in their decision, they shouldn't be worried what other people think

Well it's a bit difficult when people obviously think of you as some materialistic, selfish odd ball who needs to be pitied like a PP.

I wonder if a child free person in their old age will regret that they placed those things above having children?

What does that even mean? You can't regret something you never did, because at best, you can only speculate about what that alternative life would have looked like. So yes - sitting in a nursing home at 90, I may well think "Oh, wouldn't it be nice to have a granddaughter come and visit me like my neighbour in the next room", but there is no guarantee that I would have had grandchildren even if I had have children, nor is there any guarantee that my theoretical children would a) live nearby enough to visit b) have a good enough relationship with me to want to visit c) not be axe-murderers in prison :)

That sort of regret would also be completely one-sided. I'm much less likely to be sitting in a nursing home at 90 thinking "Really wish I'd endured at least 3 years of not sleeping more than a few hours at a time, ditched a career I loved and experienced years of anxiety about various childhood battles from potty training to bullying at school/drugs/teenage pregnancy".

it's hard for someone who has children to explain to someone who says they don't want one just what being a parent feels like

Ffs! I don’t need you to explain it to me. I’m not remotely interested. I don’t care. Why can you not understand that?