To not speak to my husband over Brexit!

[telvg]

So does anyone virtually want a divorce because their partner agrees with No Deal? I feel like telling my husband, when we have no money and food prices are sky high, or if someone we know can’t get medicine they need, that it’s his fault for supporting Brexit and No Deal. I don’t understand why people are so short sighted and can’t see the bigger picture. Everyone my age (mid 40s) and younger, who went to University, is anti Brexit, or at least anti No Deal. Even the most staunch, Middle Class over 60s, don’t support No Deal. The only ones who do, appear to be uneducated, ignorant or racist, homophonic, sexist etc type people. So why does my husband agree with it? I feel he’s not the man I married. So am I being unreasonable to feel this way?

I think many people are now feeling just get on with it do something

Well, just so long as people recognise that a no-deal Brexit will just be the start of decades of negotiations and having to listen to talk about Brexit. We have over 700 trade deals to renegotiate. Liam Fox managed a preliminary agreement on 8 in three years.

Those leading Leave had a responsibility to have some fucking plan before making all their promises. They didn't. They still, three and a half years later,have no plan. Steve Barclay said this week that we need to start talks about customs. What the fuck have they been doing. And before anyone comes along yo say TM was a Remainer, even if you believe that, they could still have worked out a strategy, agreed some principles. But they haven't. Why not? Because there is no version of Brexit they can go down up with that won't expose them as hypocrites and liars. So they have to push for no-deal and try to push the blame on others. Meanwhile we've lost the EMA, the EBA, international investment, any guarantee of medicine availability, we cannot rely on timely cancer treatments, families are bring torn apart, even Michael Zgove has said farming don't rd over, conflict is reignited in Northern Ireland - most of this has happened already or is happening, and for what? And then people wonder why some of us might be a little peeved.

I was just watching the protests on tv - I think people should stop making a fuss and let Boris do his job and get us a good deal so we can leave on Halloween.

I don't know where people find the time to protest

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49534940

A significant number of cases referred to European court are over-ruled with Europe going against the view of the UK government
user you said you work in prisons. Criminal law has nothing to do with the E U. You are conflating the European Court of Human Rights with the ECJ, which enforces EU law. We are still signatories to the echr and the Supreme Court now enforces it. On you democracy point, one of the cornerstones of democracy is the separation of powers-of the executive (government) the legislature (Parliament) and the judiciary. If Parliament has passed EU law into UK law which they do then the judiciary enforcing the will of Parliament and making sure government is not going against the will of Parliament is the actual definition of Democracy in action.

Aderyn What I'm not, is in favour of total freedom of movement or uncontrolled immigration.

This is yet another example of Leavers blaming the EU for the failures of the UK government. I do wish they would actually read or check stuff before coming out with this rubbish. FOM means freedom to work in another EU country. It is not intended to be 'total' or 'uncontrolled'. Other EU countries like Belgium, for example have implemented rules and checks to ensure FOM works the way it's intended to. The UK has not. Of course, Leave campaigners jumped on this failure of our government and spun it to blame the EU. All that's required then is for gullible people, like Aderyn, to lap up the spin.

The UK not being a member of Schengen and having the benefit of being an island control it’s borders more than other EU countries. Again lack of knowledge and understanding re FOM from the leavers.

I

Jeasamine I don't know where people find the time to protest
From the inane contribution you made above that post, I'm guessing you don't have much interest in politics or current affairs and have never got off your arse to object about anything. Other people feel very strongly about being lied to, watching their economy get trashed, watching EU friends and colleagues be made to feel unwelcome, etc etc, and find time in their busy lives to go out and make their voices heard. HTH.

Just to go back to the op I would really reflect about my relationship if my DH came out as a hard brexiter. It's not just about politics, it's about values. My DH and I think differently about some matters but for something as big as this I would really need to think long and hard what its implication are on our relationship. What does it mean about my OH's attitude to collaboration, acceptance and difference.

Again lack of knowledge and understanding re FOM from the leavers.

Not just about FOM either. Much is made of the large turnout at the referendum, but all that says to me is that a lot of people who have never been interested or informed enough to get off their backsides and vote in local, EU or general elections, got off their arses (finally!) because they'd been sufficiently wound up by the likes of Farage, Banks and Cummings.

I voted remain and i also think complete FOM is a stupid idea but on balance EU is good for the UK, we should be on the inside driving reform.

We have an aging population and a requirement to have large numbers of workers to do the jobs we simply cannot do, we will now take workers from Asia, whose culture is completely different to the vast majority of europeans, also, will prove impossible to remove once their work visa has expired, with no ID card system, large immigrant communities, fraud, anyone can be anybody.

The Breaking Point poster was taken from the NAZI era, Farage et al has used the same tactics Hitler used, Elites, Immigration, loss of culture, anyone supporting UKIP/BXP is a xenophobe (at best) and a fool.

OP - My dp supports remain, i could never be with a brexitier, there is a huge gulf in views between leavers and remainers.

And have you seen this article (evidence based, on peer reviewed journal). www.bmj.com/content/366/bmj.l5300

DarkNoise - I posted that on another thread yesterday and a BeLeaver* responded that it was biased and had been written by EU-lovers and people with foreign names, despite the fact that it was peer-reviewed etc. That's the thing with BeLeavers: if it doesn't fit their belief system, they dismiss it as irrelevant/nonsense.
*Cut'n'paste Clavinova if I recall.

@twofingerstoEverything - did they actually use the 'foreign names' expression as if that was an index of failing scholarship? and then they claim to have degrees (and it's always from "prestigious RG universities" and not to be racist....

two fingers I'm well aware that fom means freedom to work. However I can't see the value in having people from the EU (or anywhere) come here to do jobs that we don't need them to do. We need the domestic workforce to be fully employed first and then if there are more jobs than people, it's good to bring in extra. I think it's sensible to bring people in who have specific skills that the country needs. That's not what has happened and the domestic workforce has been negatively impacted by higher European migration than the govt admitted to. Wasn't it last week that it came out that the govt didn't know how many people were here, which is not reassuring.
Now it's true that successive UK govts could have controlled this better, but for their own reasons have chosen not to. Labour, under Blair favoured high immigration as a means of gaining political advantage over the Tories and the largely Tory or champagne socialist business owners of the UK have benefited from cheaper labour than they could get otherwise. No one in power here has had much incentive to control fom.
Membership of the EU allows the UK govt a place to hide - a place to offload blame for many of its own choices and come retirement from British politics was a nice source of income.
Despite numerous GE, there was no incentive for any govt to end the gravy train.
Now Cameron, in an attempt to squash BJ, unwittingly gave the electorate an opportunity to make real changes. Which the electorate took.

It's probably not just political disagreement, but also being hurt that you are genuinely worried about this and are not taken seriously, perhaps even mocked (I'm extrapolating from conversations witheave supporters I've had) and have no support through this. So it's quite personal, really. Even if you disagree politically, your husband should respect you enough to take your opinion and your fears seriously.

The most racist person I know (family member) voted remain.

I am British, I am working class, I have a degree in Early Childhood Studies and from the early 2000's to about 2014 I worked as a nanny in an affluent area of South East London, most of the residents were degree educated and had professional jobs.
Around 2012 I saw a nanny job advertised on a local and trusted forum, so I phoned up about it. The phone call was answer by a well spoken women with a British accent. She told me that she only wanted an Eastern European! Wow!
Two things struck me about this women:
She had discriminated against my nationality in the country of my birth.
She probably knew she was breaking the law in discriminating against me but she didn't care, she would never get prosecuted (my word against hers). Her arrogance was astounding. I spoke to other nanny friends about it and was told this behaviour was not uncommon.

As I have said this happened in London and I was lucky enough to find something else a few days later, but I have never forgotten about that women and her attitude towards British working class people. During the 2016 campaign I heard a lot of stories from people who lived in small working class communities who hadn't been able to find work yet we're seeing more and more EU nationals move into their area and getting jobs straight away. This was happening from the mid to late 2000's well before David Cameron and George Osbourne and austerity.

Middle class people voted to remain so they and their children could work across Europe. Working class people voted to leave so they and their children could work - think about it!

Op I find your attitude very bigoted. Maybe you should go to some of these working class communities and see for yourself what has happened over the years. And as for leaving your husband - get a grip!

I would really reflect about my relationship if my DH came out as a hard brexiter. It's not just about politics, it's about values. My DH and I think differently about some matters but for something as big as this I would really need to think long and hard what its implication are on our relationship. What does it mean about my OH's attitude to collaboration, acceptance and difference

Darknoise - I voted leave but embrace difference, welcome free movement of people, enjoy collaboration and am very accepting and non judgemental of most people. I have noticed that some remainwrs make the (often very incorrect assumption) that people who voted leave are also racist, homophobic, ignorant and a whole host of other things.

If my DH was ignorant, homophobic and racist I'd never have married him, and vice versa. However, DH is not those things and nor am I. DH voted to remain, and I voted leave. We both read around the topic, and ultimately chose to vote the way we thought would be best for the country. He still loves me even though I voted leave, because my vote only tells him what he already knew - that I value democracy, have an understanding of global politics and economics and want what is best for my children's future. I feel leave is the way to achieve a brighter future, he feels remain is the answer. Neither of us are in any way racist, homophobic, ignorant etc...

I do wish people would stop associating leavers with ignorance and racism. I am sure there are racist and ignorant (whatever than even means - I hate the word to be honest) leavers AND remainers!! But there are also kind, tolerant, intelligent, non judgemental leavers! and remainers

Given the many thoughtful replies from leavers on this thread, which has been ever so slightly more balanced than most, I’m at a loss how somebody can actually write

Well I've read this entire thread and not seen a single good reason for leaving articulated.

and

Leavers are in my opinion typically at least one of insular, small-minded, racist, xenophobic, selfish, ignorant, poorly-educated and thick.

with a straight face.

This is why leavers rarely bother. It doesn’t matter what they say.

The Norths, father and son – neither of whom are shy about criticising Brexiters– have been articulating perfectly respectable reasons for leaving for years.

Here's Pete:

In short, it's a globalising non-state superpower and what it ultimately wants is more power. More power for it and less for us. National democracies are subordinate and actual expressions of democracy are unwelcome and untrusted. It is a power hungry paranoid out of touch entity and it's ultimately more answerable to lobbyists and the NGOcracy than it is to us. It is an affront to democracy and that is the whole of the argument. This is not something any healthy democracy should wish to enmesh itself in.

Beyond that, it's a values thing. If you want to live in a top down technocracy where politics is reduced to consultative exercises for show, so that we are all free to live obedient little lives with professional politicians closing down ever more freedoms, then the EU is a nice and easy off the shelf answer. If however, you believe that the imbalances and problems can only be solved by the people through their own institutions then Brexit, no matter how expensive and inconvenient, is just one of those unpleasant chores like taking out the garbage.

and again:

It is not exceptionalism to believe that the UK can be a self-respecting and respected independent nation, nor is nostalgic to believe that Britain has a role to play globally in the myriad of international forums, both as a knowledge leader and a military power. It is not "inward looking" to have horizons beyond Brussels and it isn't xenophobic to respect that Britain is a home rather than a business park open to all comers.

It has long been my view that the EU has been a crutch for the British political establishment and a life support machine for our stagnating economic model. Breaking free of the EU and correcting the error of 1975 was always going to come at a price - and we pay a far higher price because of what our forty year long stasis has done to our politics. It is better, though, that we do this rather than wait for it all to fold in on itself.

wherewithall - a couple of people finding the EU too dictatorial does not come close to offering any good reasons to leave. This is not an evidence-based argument. Great - so one of them believes that Britain can thrive away from the EU, but their 'belief' is not going to pay the bills, is it. More than three years later the arguments being put forward for Leave still paint this glorious future with no evidence proposed about finding the co-operation from other countries about how we are going to achieve that or anything other than a blind belief that somehow it will be better. So instead of moaning that it doesn't matter what you say, say something more persuasive.

In short, it's a globalising non-state superpower and what it ultimately wants is more power. More power for it and less for us. National democracies are subordinate and actual expressions of democracy are unwelcome and untrusted. It is a power hungry paranoid out of touch entity and it's ultimately more answerable to lobbyists and the NGOcracy than it is to us. It is an affront to democracy and that is the whole of the argument. This is not something any healthy democracy should wish to enmesh itself in.

I can see the attraction to this argument, in that I see it has a populist pull, but I don't really buy it. The idea that the EU is some anti-democratic institution, when decisions are taken by democratically elected politicians doesn't really stack up. I get that it is a bit further away and more distant, and I recognise as a problem, but I don't buy the whole populist argument.

The best argument I have seen on this is a comparion that you can make between who is more free, someone in Michigan or Canada. When it comes to trade decisions, the US has more clout than Canada. Therefore, someone living in Michigan has a real say in a powerful body, and Canadians have more say in a less powerful body, and have to abide by what people in Michigan and other US states want when it comes to trade.

The reality is that sovereignty is not some perfect all or nothing situation.

I am, actually, sympathetic to people feeling aggrieved about employers being able to pay EU27 citizens less and British people losing out as a result. It was the only reason for leave prior to the referendum that stood up to scrutiny that I heard. But the EU has changed legislation to address those concerns and even the government's studies (which Theresa May admittedly tried to suppress) show that immigration contributes hugely to a healthy economy.