To think it is now inevitable that Scotland will become independent?

[amandacarnet]

With brexit and the increasing move to the right wing, I think it is now just a matter of time until Scotland becomes independent.

Just to point out that the Republic of Ireland (not "Southern", honestly!)

It's not the Republic of Ireland either. It's Ireland.

Otra agree with everything. Gaelic ambulances

@MorrisZapp the uk does share a land border with Ireland. Northern Ireland is part of the UK and Ireland is not. Brexit is a happening with a land border and related culture. It is one of the major issues

The Irish border is a huge issue in brexit, clearly. But I don't understand how it affects Scottish independence. We'd be pulling out of a country we border because we want to stay in an economic agreement with countries over the sea.

I think the same arguments that Brexiteers used to leave the EU will be the same argument that the very same people will use to ask Scotland to stay in the Union.

Better together
Shared resources
The economy

A massive amount of cognitive dissonance will happen.

What happens to the SNP if Yes wins?

This is an interesting question. My belief is that most SNP voters vote that way because they want independence - once that is achieved there will be a huge decline in SNP votes, and a big resurgence in lib Dems / Tories / labour etc.

Ironically independence is probably the best chance these parties have of ever holding any meaningful power again in Scotland

Hope so then Wales can follow suit

Nope will never happen.

Long time lurker, had to register though to address some of the complete and utter ignorance bandied around in this thread.

Where to start?

The EU - 'Scotland is too poor to join the EU'

Well isn't that really odd. Scotland is currently an EU region. I don't recall anyone claiming Scotland should be removed from the EU for being skint. Similarly, can those people claiming this please explain the ascension of Slovakia, Latvia, Lithuania, Slovenia, Poland, etc etc

'Spain wont allow it'

God all mighty, this utter rubbish still persists. It got to the stage that even Spanish government ministers made a point of going on record to state that this is complete and utter baseless nonsense. Spain has absolutely no issue whatsoever with nations which have attained independence legally ascending to the EU. The 'but catalonia!' thing stems from the fact that in order to become independent, the whole of Spain, not just Catalonia itself, must vote for Catalonia to be so. If Scotland attains independence legally, Spain has absolutely no intention of vetoing EU membership, this is their own stated policy. They have had no issue with any number of other states joining the EU who were formerly part of a larger incorporating state. Want to see this in action? Proof of the pudding so to speak? Go read about Spain's refusal to recognise Kosovo and juxtapose that with their attitude to other Balkan states who achieved their independence by means other than UDI. Can we please just bin off this complete and utter 'Spanish Veto' fallacy for once and for all? It's beyond tiresome hearing people still banging on about it.

'Scotland doesn't have an army and couldn't defend itself' -

Sorry to burst your bubble, Scotland currently does have an army, I've served in it myself. Here we go again with the 'UK institutions are actually English institutions and we'd take them off you if you leave'. Scotland currently pays for public sector services and national institutions such as the Armed Forces. They're every bit as much 'Scotland's' as they are the UK's.

Why leave the UK just to "subjugate" (rofl :D) yourself to the EU?

Yes, because the massive return of sovereignty which would result from leaving an more or less wholly incorporating union to a non-incorporating one somehow equals "subjugation"? Seriously? Listen to yourself.

"Scotland doesn't generate enough revenue to pay for itself"

Newsflash - Neither does the UK, persisting as it does in an endless cycle of deficit/borrow/debt. Odd though that this is a problem for some nations, but perfectly normal and natural for the UK. Ok then...

"Gaelic everywhere where it was never spoken!"

This just astounds. How about you go fact check this rather than just mindlessly parroting it because you don't happen to speak Gaelic? Tell you what, I'll do it for you -

i.redd.it/wc3h7fd5jdm11.jpg

So there you go. Unless you're talking specifically about the SouthEast of Scotland, please disabuse yourself of this endlessly repeated nonsense about it 'not being spoken here'.

Also, as far as I'm aware, Gaelic speaking people still have to pay taxes, are they not entitled to see their language being used on the things they, in part, pay for?

Still not convinced? Ok, how about a rail map of Central Scotland with all the placenames where 'it was never spoken' removed and replaced with English instead?

www.flickr.com/photos/kaputniq/28394382878/in/dateposted/

Good luck navigating your way from 'High Bit of Land' to 'Thicket', but at least you won't have to put up with all that Gaelic silliness eh?

Two pages in and all the old classics already, despite them being completely debunked over and over. I despair sometimes.

If you think about it, Scotland is crashing out of the EU because England wants to. Every single treaty negotiated via the EU will become null and void at the point it happens (currently 31/10) Scotland might then see that as a chance to renegotiate some of those treaties for it's own benefit. After all, no deal basically means a renegotiation of all treaties which Westminster will take charge of and presumably will do this to it's own advantage. There's going to be a period where Scotland isn't in the EU as an independent country and will be dangling, waiting for new trading rules to be put in place - that's the danger point for unionists. Depends how bad the months after 'no deal' become.

1. Scotland has a 7% deficit, the worst in the entire EU. It would not be allowed to apply to join the EU until the deficit was below 3%. That means massive tax rises, austerity, and benefit cuts, plus severely reduced spending on the NHS and education.
2. Scotland has no currency, no central bank and no currency reserves. All the major financial institutions based in Edinburgh would have to move to London. RBS alone has £74 billion of assets, which a Scottish government cannot possibly guarantee or underwrite as lender of last resort. That means Scotland would lose its entire share of the corporation tax currently paid by the financial services sector.
3. Scotland’s demographics are worse than England’s- we are older, sicker, and losing young people who emigrate to London or abroad for better opportunities. Meanwhile, we gain pensioners who retire up here for the golf, fishing and low house prices. They are not economically active, but are a heavy drain on the NHS and social care.
4. The SNP’s own white paper (book of fairy tales) budgeted for a Scottish Defence Force of just 600 frontline troops. How in hell would they patrol Scotland’s fishing waters to keep out foreign trawlers, or protect our miles of coastline from drug smugglers and illegal migrants?
5. The SNP based their independence fantasy on the (2014) oil price of $100 a barrel. Have a look at it now and laugh. Or weep, if you seriously think Scotland might end up independent. I live in Scotland and will vote No as long as there’s breath in my body - for the sake of my DC’s generation.

@ssd there absolutely was hatred. My OH is English and was on the receiving end of numerous “go back to where you belong” type comments, some jokingly but certainly not all. My own mother didn’t talk to me for 3 years because I voted to stay. We are definitely not the type to go throwing our opinions around or look for arguments and kept our vote to ourselves unless pushed.

Google says current oil price is $55 a barrell

There was all sorts of crap in my family too. We get on brilliantly but I can't discuss this with them.

It's all very well to say people should be able to respectfully disagree, but this is a polarised debate. My family genuinely feel that No voters are bad people who want others to suffer. They can't disagree respectfully, any more than you would disagree respectfully with someone punching your face.

My mum in particular claimed she loved all the debate that came her way when she wore her Yes badge. But the only people she 'debated' with were people who agreed with them.

Then there was genuine heartbreak the day after the vote because they didn't see it coming. They thought the whole country was Yes because the No voters didn't march or put signs up.

I saw none of the 'hateful invective' @OhButMyDarling mentions in their post. I live in Glasgow and voted yes and I saw no trouble, nothing. Friends voted no

That is the experience of my family too. Of course there were 'discussions' - just like discussions about Brexit where some people can get more heated than others, but some people on both sides could come out with unpleasantries.

An independent Scotland will return........being dragged out of Europe against its will underlines how little it's voting choices count when still in the UK.

@MorrisZapp - yes funny how no one in England thought about that other part of the UK and NO that shares a land border and culture with an EU country when voting for Brexit.

@ssd there absolutely was hatred. My OH is English and was on the receiving end of numerous “go back to where you belong” type comments

My OH who is English has never received comments like this. There are eejits in every country who will insult/make fun of people who sound or look different - they are always in the minority and rarely tolerated by the majority.

@Babdoc

All of which you appear to believe is a resounding endorsement for perpetuating government from Westminster. Yes, lets continue with the course of action that has resulted in the exact catastrophe you describe.

Yep, please continue to vote 'No' for the sake of your children's future, provided you actually want your children to live in a nation that's being scandalously and flagrantly mis-managed from London, AND deny them the right and ability to actually choose to do something about that.

The total failure of logic of "Things are disastrous! let's endorse those responsible!" totally astounds me.

@XDownwiththissortofthingX
You think the Barnett formula is mismanagement from London?

It would be so interesting to watch them try to manage their enormous budget shortfall, but sure, they should definitely crack on with it.

I expect free university would go the way of the rest of the UK, sharpish.

The EU wouldn't touch Scotland with a shitty caber. Upon independence it'd be in a far worse position than Greece was when it was at its worst.

Happy for them to go if they want, they won’t get automatic entry to the Eu, and if they do they will have to have the Euro, no money from the rest of the uk, ( and they already pay a higher tax rate than the rest of the uk) no money from oil, and payments to make to the Eu. So go, they will be broke and a basket case economy in short order

We would not have to join the Euro (and why would it be so terrible if we did?), we don't get extra money from rUK now, most of us actually pay less income tax, and the oil (and income) will be ours.

If we rejoin EU how will we avoid a hard border with England?

re currency and erm