To think it is now inevitable that Scotland will become independent?

[amandacarnet]

With brexit and the increasing move to the right wing, I think it is now just a matter of time until Scotland becomes independent.

As a country that was formerly part of the EU (as part of the United Kingdom) Scotland might find that the EU are willing to accelerate our membership/rejoining. The EU are clearly pissed off with Westminster so might take a certain pleasure in welcoming us back. I don't know but I'd be surprised if the Scottish government haven't had those conversatons already.

As for a hard border with England, I don't think that would be problematic as it doesn't have the same symbolism and meaning as the NI/Irish border does. In fact, our membership of the EU would be helpful to Ireland as it would offer another convenient import-export route to the continent via Stranraer and Rosyth.

As for not having an Army etc, that was dealt with the last White Paper. And don't forget we're currently the home for the UK's nuclear subs. They're a big bargaining chip as Scotland would generally like to be rid of them but my submariner brother tells me that there's nowhere else in the UK to house them without an enormous amount of work on infrastructure - you can't just dock those at Portsmouth. If we allow rUK to keep them here for a certain amount of time, then we should be able to leverage that quite usefully.

NB - I'm English, lived here for 20 years, only experienced one incidence of genuine anti-English feeling which was easily dealt with, voted Yes last time and almost certainly would again. I feel more Scottish than English these days and even more so when I go back to England and see the mean-spirited attitudes in my home town.

Try as I might to unpick Scotland’s economy, I fail. I believe it would do very well financially after a while. But it’s a risk I do not think the population will vote for.

Now Rutland, on the other hand....

Totally agree @Morgan12
Am more than happy for taxes to go up if elderly care is continued and vulnerable people are looked after. We're a socialist country and we care about the less fortunate. That's why we voted to remain and we seldom vote tory.

It is not going to happen.

How would the vote come about? Boris isn’t going to give it and Corbyn neutralises the ‘we need to be a left-wing country’.

I can't fathom why people would look at Brexit and the absolute chaos it has brought and want more of that by voting for Scexit.

The growth commission report says that we would have at least 10 years of austerity just to get back to where we are now. How bad is it actually going to be if that's what the SNP are saying to persuade people to vote for it?!?!?!

It also says that Scotland wouldn't be big enough to support another collapse like RBS, but that's ok because we'll lose all the big financial institutions after independence.

Why the hell would people vote for that?

We should not have supported the collapse of banks. Iceland didn't and theyjailed the bankers. They also bounced back quicker than countries that bailed out the banks.

My view is, if England think scotland is too wee, too poor, too stupid to be independent and a drain on the economy, subsidising scroungers, why can't England declare independence from the UK and leave, also leaving the EU at the same time and letting the Scottish scroungers suck it up. Best of both worlds for England no EU red tape, stupid laws, dictatorship, etc and much wealthier as they will no longer be subsidising the Scottish scroungers.

What are we understanding by 'hard border'? I'm no expert but having been to the USA I've faced unpleasant interviews and long queues to enter at customs.

What would a hard border at Berwick mean in practice? Would passports be required to cross it? Customs checks? Lorries being searched etc? Or would the train whizz through as before.

No need to be condescending amandacarnet.

I am fully aware of the concept of dual citizenship.

You made reference to being able to choose to have Scottish or English citizenship and I was merely replying that if I was obliged to choose English citizenship that could affect my ability to return to Scotland.

I am surprised that you are not aware that some countries do not permit dual citizenship and there has been no indication whether this would apply in this case.

As for me only associating with people born in Britain that is a very offensive assumption to make. I did live outside the UK for over 15 years and had many friends with dual citizenship.

You posted as if you had never heard of dual citizenship. Very few countries do not allow this, although a few do. Since Britain currently allow people from other countries to have dual citizenship, I can't see why they would make an exception for Scotland.

Iceland didn't and theyjailed the bankers.

Lol you don't want to believe every feel good meme you read on the internet.

This was not based on a meme. I was in Iceland and reading their newspapers.

Also read a very detailed long story in the Financial Times about Iceland and how they dealt with the banking crises. The FT that left wing newspaper said that the way it dealt with the banking crisis meant that its economy rebounded much more quickly than economies like Britain.

What would a hard border at Berwick mean in practice? Would passports be required to cross it? Customs checks? Lorries being searched etc? Or would the train whizz through as before

It would look like a border between any other 2 countries which aren't in any kind of customs union or free travel area.

I presume you've crossed between 2 countries like this - I know I have.

The pig ignorance on this thread is astounding, but it’s hard to blame people given the standard of the media.

Scotland is a medium sized, boy a small country.
It has a first world economy and infrastructure.
Oil and gas tax revenue is at present taken by Westminster to be “pooled and shared” with the rest of the UK. That won’t happen after independence.
Scotland owns 8% of all of the UK’s assets.
The UK’s assets are worth more than the UK’s debt or the UK would be bankrupt.
Any budget deficit currently is delivered with Westminster controlling the economy.
As well as oil and gas, Scotland has water and electricity in abundance (we are net exporters, unlike England.
We also have a thriving whisky and tourism industry.
Scotland will be able to choose between full EU membership and EFTA.
Either way, Scotland will be a magnet Forbes overseas investment which otherwise would have gone to London.
Scotland need people to grow, and polling shows that hundreds of thousands would move from England, bringing their cash, assets and skills with them.
Scotland is embarrassed by the absolute state of the Brexit voters in England.
Polling indicates a majority now for independence.
Demographics point to that position being maintained and growing.
Standard and Poors (global ratings agency” believe a Scottish currency and government would have AA plus rating, like New Zealand’s.
Not one country which has ever left the UK or Empire has ever sought to return. I think it’s about 100 now.
Your government and politicians broke every single promise you made to get us to vote to stay in 2014. What do you expect now?
Our elected politicians are treated like absolute dirt in Westminster and by your media.

Almost everyone I know, including in business, is now ready to vote for independence. A lot of these people were not ready in 2014 and gave you one last chance.

We’ll be seeing you. You won’t be governing us any more but those who want a better way of life will he very welcome to join us.

“I am surprised that you are not aware that some countries do not permit dual citizenship and there has been no indication whether this would apply in this case. ”

There is provision for this in the Scotland act. After independence people would be free to retain their UK passports and also have a Scottish passport if they wished. Similarly, they can reject either.

I think what is happening now is definitely making independence more likely. I was gutted when we voted no last time.
Of course if Brexit is a big success that might change matters, but how likely is that?

Thank you Hercules.

Of course if Brexit is a big success that might change matters, but how likely is that?

Sadly, not at all. It's going to be a complete shitshow

I wish I had different ancestors. I rang my Dad to check on my Grandparents and Great Grandparents - turns out we're all English.

I love my country. I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. But I wish I had relatives from Scotland or Ireland so I could get away from all this English crap.

Good luck to Scotland - whatever you do. I don't blame you if you want to be free of the English.

Hear hear @StreetwiseHercules! Scotland has so much going for it, but the main thing is, amongst most people I know who are all yes voters, we do expect things to be hard for several years after independence, and accept this happily in exchange for a means to improve the quality of life of everyone, not just a privileged minority. The priority for many yes voters is pursuing a more left leaning, compassionate politics, such as welcoming immigration, universal basic income, legalised drug ‘consumption rooms’ and raising taxes to fairly fund such policies in order to have a more egalitarian society. I find the SNP a bit too centrist and would have some concerns about the EUs austerity policies if we rejoined, but if that’s what it takes to become independent of Westminster and the colonial British mindset then I’m up for it.

I want to say clearly that there are so few yes voters who are anti English- more like anti Tory. Wed be delighted to welcome English friends who care about others and want to be free of the increasingly right wing horrors developing in England and across the world. Let’s get inspired people!

@chomalungma - you can come and stay with me

Chomslungma, we will welcome immigration from England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿, you won’t have any problem being able to live and work here.

“What would a hard border at Berwick mean in practice? Would passports be required to cross it? Customs checks? Lorries being searched etc? Or would the train whizz through as before.”

It would be more like the Canadian/American border, which is a breeze. And even then, it would only imposed by Westminster. We would propose and open border, like Norway and Switzerland have with their neighbours despite not being in the EU.

Chomslungma, we will welcome immigration from England