AIBU to think the police were out of order?

[Cailleachian]

DS1 (18) has chronic insomnia. A about 6 month back, he started taking nightwalks as a way of wearing himself out and clearing his mind. Sometimes DS2 (17) keeps him company, Tonight, they went out for a walk about 11pm and about 1/2hour later DS2 came bolting in the door, shouting "Mum, Mum, its the police". My first thought was that one of them had got in a fight or been hurt.

I answered the door and a male and female police officer are standing there with DS1. The man asks to come in, telling me that he is here to charge DS2 with breach of the peace.

It transpires that they were stopped by the woman, who was questioning them about why they were walking about and whether they were from a "unit"(?!) when the man came over and started shouting at them and demanding to search them. DS1 was searched, but when DS2 was searched apparently he kept backing away, at which point the man grabbed his hands and pinned him against a wall. DS2 then swore at him repeatedly. Thoughout being told this DS2 is very upset, keeps interrupting the man over minutiae (and at times I felt like was trying to sort out DS1 and DS2's squabbles), but ultimately both of them agree that this is what happened.

In the end he didnt charge him, but to be honest, I'm a bit outraged that he even considered it. I dont know why my sons were stopped (acting suspiciously, out late at night while under 18, area where breakins happen were all reasons I was given). I dont know why he wasnt able to de-escalate a stop and search without physical aggression. And above all I dont understand why he thought it was a child protection issue, given that the only person that assaulted him in the street at night was the policeman himself.

Go-on Mumsnet, give me your best pearl clutching.

Ok, I'll correct that. Its only a few years since Sheku Bayoh died of excited delerium in the street surrounded by nine police officers.

Op, yes that’s a more accurate description of events. Certainly no “murder” took place.

MrsBethnal Take what you want from that statement. But if I decide I have reasonable grounds to search you, I’m not going to stand there and argue the toss with you. You would be getting searched one way or another. I won’t be walking away without a search by that point,

Op, yes that’s a more accurate description of events. Certainly no “murder” took place.

And Jean Charles de Menezes simply put his hat on too tight ?

I just dont want my sons ending up catching excited delerium.

You don’t catch “excited delirium”.

proofessor Are you aware of the Sheku Bayou case? It bears no resemblance to the De Menzies incident.

"Teenage boys are the victims of knife crimes" - yes, by other teenage boys.

OP, you seem completely blinkered to the idea that your sons can do anything wrong? I can't believe you just made him tea, sent him off and then went to tell the police off the next morning!

But then your latest post shows you obviously feel pretty anti-police, so he's probably picked that up from you.

@ProfessorSlocombe

When you get a chance - you asked me a direct question that accused me of saying that breaking the law is acceptable.

I answered you so it would be good for you to at least acknowledge my response.

Otherwise it was pretty poor form to ask me a direct question requesting a response, which I have given you.

NickNacky I think the problem is where a police officer knows there aren't reasonable grounds, but has already decided they won't be walking away without a search. So they start an interaction and try to manufacture something.

I'm sure you never did that. But it does happens. All. The Time.

They'll probably have tricks or routines to manufacture 'reasonable grounds'. Come to think of it, asking someone who they have no right to direct and control the actions of to "take you hands out of your pockets", hoping they will think "fuck that, you have no right to boss me about" and refuse is probably one of them!

@yulet

"Teenage boys are the victims of knife crimes" - yes, by other teenage boys.

I think this might also be a difference in perceptions and the situation in England and in Scotland.

The area I live in has relatively high crime rates, historically that included knife crime. Knife crime has dropped massively in the last few years, consequently I tend to associate it with older people.

I feel very safe on the streets at night in general. But I;d be a bit freaked out at a car pulling over and asking me to approach, it stopping, a woman coming to talk to me then a man yelling from the car and coming over, showing/flashing me badges that I couldnt read properly in the dark then holding my wrist, patting me down then pinning me against a wall. I'd imagine teenage boys would feel the same.

I'm intrigued OP. You live in an area of high crime, yet it has low knife crime and you feel safe walking the streets at night.

What kind of crimes are making it an area of high crime then?

Shoplifting and break-ins mainly.

If someone was coming towards me with a sword, in a situation where I had responsibility for de-arming them, I'd do my best to establish a rapport with them, try to understand how they came to be in that situation and get them to put the sword down.

My instinct would have been to talk him down.

If it ever happens, I think you'll find that your first instinct it to pee yourself.

I can't believe you are so patronising and naive.

Oh, and drug offences

I don’t pay a lot of attention to statistics however I would suspect any drop in possession of weapons stats will be as a direct result that there are less stop and searches than there have been in previous years, not because the weapons aren’t being carried.

I would say I work in a mid crime level area but I would say the vast majority of my workload has weapons, mainly knives involved.

Stats can be tweaked to suit.

And I wouldn’t associate knife crime in “older” people, whatever that means. It’s all ages.

Well done @Nicknacky keep flying the flag.

I would suspect any drop in possession of weapons stats will be as a direct result that there are less stop and searches than there have been in previous years, not because the weapons aren’t being carried.

Exactly @Nicknacky spot on.

I'm being genuine OP as I really think you would benefit from this.. most forces do drive along schemes. You can apply to go out with an officer for a few hours and see what their daily business is like. Clearly nothing being said in here by actual officers is making you understand.. I really think you'd find it interesting and useful. You could also use the situation to have a conversation with the officers about how and why they conduct stop searches and explain the effect it's had on your boys. Seriously, I think you should apply to do this.

Cailleachian you live in an area that has a high crime rate, especially break ins and drug offences and you refuse to see how your darling sons on their nocturnal wanderings 'taking in the night air' might appear suspicious! And then when your son starts backing away, refusing to take his hands out of his pockets and generally acting like a first class dick, you think he's the injured party....
That really is a special class of blinkered!

If someone was coming towards me with a sword, in a situation where I had responsibility for de-arming them, I'd do my best to establish a rapport with them, try to understand how they came to be in that situation and get them to put the sword down.

My instinct would have been to talk him down.

PMSL.

Have tou considered joining the army?

most forces do drive along schemes. You can apply to go out with an officer for a few hours and see what their daily business is like.

Is that a fact? I didn't know that - might apply for that next time I'm in the UK.

I’m not sure what forces do ride alongs but Ive never heard of Police Scotland allowing it.

My local force definitely does them, they advertise a couple of times a year that you can apply to do one.

See attached...

I’ve just googled and see Avon and Somerset do them. That’s an interesting idea.