AIBU to think the police were out of order?

[Cailleachian]

DS1 (18) has chronic insomnia. A about 6 month back, he started taking nightwalks as a way of wearing himself out and clearing his mind. Sometimes DS2 (17) keeps him company, Tonight, they went out for a walk about 11pm and about 1/2hour later DS2 came bolting in the door, shouting "Mum, Mum, its the police". My first thought was that one of them had got in a fight or been hurt.

I answered the door and a male and female police officer are standing there with DS1. The man asks to come in, telling me that he is here to charge DS2 with breach of the peace.

It transpires that they were stopped by the woman, who was questioning them about why they were walking about and whether they were from a "unit"(?!) when the man came over and started shouting at them and demanding to search them. DS1 was searched, but when DS2 was searched apparently he kept backing away, at which point the man grabbed his hands and pinned him against a wall. DS2 then swore at him repeatedly. Thoughout being told this DS2 is very upset, keeps interrupting the man over minutiae (and at times I felt like was trying to sort out DS1 and DS2's squabbles), but ultimately both of them agree that this is what happened.

In the end he didnt charge him, but to be honest, I'm a bit outraged that he even considered it. I dont know why my sons were stopped (acting suspiciously, out late at night while under 18, area where breakins happen were all reasons I was given). I dont know why he wasnt able to de-escalate a stop and search without physical aggression. And above all I dont understand why he thought it was a child protection issue, given that the only person that assaulted him in the street at night was the policeman himself.

Go-on Mumsnet, give me your best pearl clutching.

I'm sorry but I don't think you have any grounds to complain here. They were searched but your younger son was not being compliant and therefore was restrained and searched. When he was restrained he started being abusive and so the police considered a beach of the peace offence. That all sounds like reasonable action by police.
What else can they do? If they go to search someone and that person says no thanks and walks off should they just say ok nevermind!

But policing is one of these jobs that people think they know how to do and think they can do better than those who are trained and experiences in and that drives me up the wall.

It's nothing personal. All jobs are like that. As any nurse, doctor, lawyer, surgeon, engineer, pilot (etc etc) will tell you.

professor Or people could stop being so arrogant? And there aren’t that many jobs people say this about. I haven’t seen anyone on MN comment on how to remove an appendix or replace an engine.

@ProfessorSlocombe

I’m sure you have great insight from watching from your window on the complexities of dealing with gangs and the associated crimes, I’m from Brixton originally and the eye opening daily occurrence didn’t qualify me to be a Police Officer, just as watching Casualty doesn’t equip me to perform surgery.

^^5 officers injured by a 18 year old yesterday near me who was reportedly armed with a Machete.

The Point of this is to show how quickly a situation can escalate, the 18 year old machete maniac could very well have hidden it down his trousers, they actually have loops to enable them to do this, hence why an officer wants to see someone’s hands especially when they are refusing, swearing and backing away.

I’m sure you have great insight from watching from your window on the complexities of dealing with gangs and the associated crimes, I’m from Brixton originally and the eye opening daily occurrence didn’t qualify me to be a Police Officer, just as watching Casualty doesn’t equip me to perform surgery.

If you read what I wrote; which was acknowledging the need for extreme police action to protect the public, you wouldn't have written that as if I was trying to make some other point. I am neither a policeman, nor do I play one on TV - anywhere in the world with or without subtitles.

Police powers to stop and search: your rights
The police can stop and question you at any time - they can search you depending on the situation.

A police community support officer (PCSO) must be in uniform when they stop and question you. A police officer doesn’t always have to be in uniform but if they’re not wearing uniform they must show you their warrant card.

The rules are different in Scotland.

Stop and question: police powers
A police officer might stop you and ask:

what your name is
what you’re doing in the area
where you’re going
You don’t have to stop or answer any questions. If you don’t and there’s no other reason to suspect you, then this alone can’t be used as a reason to search or arrest you.

Stop and search: police powers
A police officer has powers to stop and search you if they have ‘reasonable grounds’ to suspect you’re carrying:

illegal drugs
a weapon
stolen property
something which could be used to commit a crime, such as a crowbar
You can only be stopped and searched without reasonable grounds if it has been approved by a senior police officer. This can happen if it is suspected that:

serious violence could take place
you’re carrying a weapon or have used one
you’re in a specific location or area
Before you’re searched
Before you’re searched the police officer must tell you:

their name and police station
what they expect to find, for example drugs
the reason they want to search you, for example if it looks like you’re hiding something
why they are legally allowed to search you
that you can have a record of the search and if this isn’t possible at the time, how you can get a copy
Removing clothing: police powers
A police officer can ask you to take off your coat, jacket or gloves.

You can't be searched just because you are walking around at night time. Sounds like abuse of power to me. And not legal and therefore worthy of complaint.

@ProfessorSlocombe in your rather long winded reply whilst reminiscing over your student days whilst gazing at the luxurious surroundings of Gateways car park, you asked...

Not quite sure how we jump from the legalities surrounding Stop and Search to police dealing with armed and dangerous people in public.

Can you not see a connection?

I feel really sorry for the op over some of the responses she's had on this thread.

If I was walking in the dark late at night and two people wearing jeans and hoodies pulled up in a car, told me they were police officers and were going to search me, I would have been backing away. I absolutely wouldn't be letting them search me. They could have been anyone!

I understand that they showed ID but it was dark and I have no idea what a police ID is supposed to look like!

I suppose all this raises a question: suppose you are minding your own business and a plains clothes police officer tells you you are being stopped and searched, without telling you their name, police station, what they expect to find, or why they expect to find it.

If this happens, they are attempting to search you unlawfully. In those circumstances they have no more right to search you than I have to search you, or indeed than you have to search them.
If you tried to search them, I wonder what they would do???

I honestly don't know what I would do in this situation. Given the opportunity, I would probably run away, as I would suspect they are actually criminals themselves. But otherwise, I don't know what I would do. I guess I'd hope to remain calm, and politely and directly challenge their authority to search me; ask them for the grounds, what they expect to find, etc; ask them for a receipt; ask them for a badge number.

I don't think I'd tell them I intend to complain. Though I would indeed complain. I guess if you tell them you are going to complain, they are more likely to lie to smear you, and to pretend there were some sort of reasonable grounds for the search.

@Cailleachian

I actually think you've taken on board the comments on here when you've taken a bit of a bashing so thank you for really listening and agreeing there's been some (maybe lots of!) naivety on your part.

It's rare on here that OPs let people know they've thought about opinions that challenge their own experience so well done (not being sarcy I really mean that!)

If this happens, they are attempting to search you unlawfully. In those circumstances they have no more right to search you than I have to search you, or indeed than you have to search them. If you tried to search them, I wonder what they would do???

Best advice (from a policeman) is to do as you are told, and complain later. There's no other decision tree that ends well for the public here. (Such an asymmetric nature of power is one reason we have - and should insist on - laws around how the police exercise their power).

I noted the Kenneth Noye case upthread as a startling excecption that proves the rule.

Yeah, that sounds sensible.

Unless a friend is filming it, they can pretty much do what they want and get away with it.

Backing away from or not cooperating with an unlawful search is a perfectly lawful response, but who's to say the police won't then assault you, then lie about events to put all the blame on you???

Unless a friend is filming it, they can pretty much do what they want and get away with it.

In which case even more caution would be advised. Some police officers "appear" to think it's illegal to film them (it isn't) or that it's illegal to film in public (it isn't) and will happily use force to make their point (the brief discussion upthread about photographers being harassed by the police touches on this).

I parenthesise appear since police training has been making the laws around photography and filming in public crystal clear for years, but it's always officers who didn't get the memo that deal with photographers. Although it's not helpful that most of the public haven't a clue and can't be bothered to find out either.

Either way, the advice is the same. Remain calm. Comply with the officer in question. Note badge number and name, and request the search receipt before leaving, assuming the encounter doesn't end in arrest.

MrsBethel Believe it or not, but cops don’t want to be struggling and fighting with people they are trying to search, that’s how people end up injured and it’s dangerous for the cops when you have no idea what the person may have on them.

The seaside searches are compliment ones and most of the times I have searched people we have had some kind of chat, often had a laugh and then we say our goodbyes and I would usually thank them.

You may consider the search unlawful but that doesn’t make it so. And backing away or resisting will not end the way you want it to.

“Seaside”😂 that’s should say “easiest”.

@Nicknacky thank you for doing the job you do - it is so undervalued as proven by some of the comments on this thread. AS IF you're looking to "get away" with stuff while on a bloody long shift dealing with dangerous situations!

You do an important job and the vast majority of the force go into it to make society a safer place - as my dad says he didn't go into it for money or easy hours!!

I'd like people who speak so disrespectfully about the police to spend a week on duty and see some of the things you have to see, then come back and let us know if their opinion has changed.

Imagine doing a job where you get a phone call and have to walk into a house of strangers who could be armed and dangerous. The police never know what they're walking into but they do it. My dad is the generation of PC Blakelock - life is so cruel and they are on the front line.

Thank you for the role you play in keeping us safer than we would be without you being brave!

@LeekMunchingSheepShagger

nah, I have a thick skin, and its been really interesting.

I guess I havent really paid due regard to how police would have perceived things. Early on in the thread for example, someone suggested that the police would not have let DS2 go into a different room to calm down in case he came back with a knife. That would never have occurred to me, but I can understand that it would be a reasonable precaution for the police to take, whereas I saw it as heavy handed not to allow him a few minutes to calm down a bit.

Another thing that I've realised reading this thread is how afraid people (in general) seem to be of teenage boys, despite them being the primary victims of knife crime. I expected more comments along the lines of "how irresponsible to put your sons at risk by allowing them out of the house at night", which was a bit of a subtext in the police interaction with me.

I guess I just tend to be wary in general of police overstepping their remit and bad things happening as a result. Remember its only been a few years since Sheku Bayou was murdered. I know my kids are white and have a level of protection from their skin colour, but it still worries me.

ThatCurlyGirl Awww thank you and I feel like a bit air a hypocrite because despite my posts I haven’t been a uniformed officer for a while now although I am still out and about in public. I usually turn up when the drama is over 😂

You do an important job and the vast majority of the force go into it to make society a safer place - as my dad says he didn't go into it for money or easy hours!!

So is that, or is that not, an excuse to break the law ?

Yes ?
No ?

Loads of people do very difficult jobs. Heartbreaking jobs. Jobs where they may be responsible for the lives of hundreds of people in a single aeroplane in the sky.

Should they have a free pass if they happen to break a law or two ?

The end does not - and never will - justify the means. Especially when it comes to the law and enforcing it. You can't enforce the law by breaking it. And if you can, it's not the law anymore, is it ?

Gosh, that was long winded.

Ah and there we have it. Sheku Bayou was not murdered.

professor You seem very convinced that the police officers break laws. Quite blinkered by that , in fact.

@ProfessorSlocombe

You do an important job and the vast majority of the force go into it to make society a safer place - as my dad says he didn't go into it for money or easy hours!!

So is that, or is that not, an excuse to break the law?

Yes ?
No ?

Unequivocally it's absolutely NOT an excuse to break the law (whether police or public) and I have never said it is. So it's a bit silly for you to quote the statement above followed by a question that doesn't logically follow on from it.

I even said "the vast majority of you" not "every single last one of you" because I recognise some in that position don't behave appropriately.

Jumping on a post that says thank you to the police officers who do have society's best interests at heart seems a bit ridiculous all things considered, but it's your prerogative.

professor You seem very convinced that the police officers break laws. Quite blinkered by that , in fact.

Nicknacky

You seem convinced that I am convinced that police officers break laws. Because if something is A it can't be B, and if something is B it can't be A ?

Some police officers break some laws. As you yourself observed upthread. Putting on a uniform does not magically remove the criminal in anyone. Nor should wearing it give anyone any magic exemption from the rule of law.

In the main, our police do a very good job in very difficult circumstances, and I'm happy to restate that as many times as people think it needs restating. Be it once, or a thousand.

However no matter how many times it's stated, restated, or written in fonts not available on Mumsnet (yet) it should not be viewed as an excuse for any officer to break the law.

What a lot of people don't really grasp, is that the police are an arm of the state, and there should always be oversight and limits to the powers of the state (which is my hobby horse). It's quite a broad field, and not going be solved in the next 500 posts or so here.

Nicknacky, for a stop and search conducted lawfully that's all fine and dandy.

For a lawful stop and search the phrase "backing away or resisting will not end the way you want it to" is fair enough.

I'm sure you're not one of the bad ones, but for an unlawful stop and search that exact same phrase becomes very sinister indeed.