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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU to think the police were out of order?

553 replies

Cailleachian · 29/08/2019 00:13

DS1 (18) has chronic insomnia. A about 6 month back, he started taking nightwalks as a way of wearing himself out and clearing his mind. Sometimes DS2 (17) keeps him company, Tonight, they went out for a walk about 11pm and about 1/2hour later DS2 came bolting in the door, shouting "Mum, Mum, its the police". My first thought was that one of them had got in a fight or been hurt.

I answered the door and a male and female police officer are standing there with DS1. The man asks to come in, telling me that he is here to charge DS2 with breach of the peace.

It transpires that they were stopped by the woman, who was questioning them about why they were walking about and whether they were from a "unit"(?!) when the man came over and started shouting at them and demanding to search them. DS1 was searched, but when DS2 was searched apparently he kept backing away, at which point the man grabbed his hands and pinned him against a wall. DS2 then swore at him repeatedly. Thoughout being told this DS2 is very upset, keeps interrupting the man over minutiae (and at times I felt like was trying to sort out DS1 and DS2's squabbles), but ultimately both of them agree that this is what happened.

In the end he didnt charge him, but to be honest, I'm a bit outraged that he even considered it. I dont know why my sons were stopped (acting suspiciously, out late at night while under 18, area where breakins happen were all reasons I was given). I dont know why he wasnt able to de-escalate a stop and search without physical aggression. And above all I dont understand why he thought it was a child protection issue, given that the only person that assaulted him in the street at night was the policeman himself.

Go-on Mumsnet, give me your best pearl clutching.

OP posts:
elasticfantastic · 30/08/2019 00:29

Not sure if you tube links work but this is a classic example of an officer using all the verbal communication in a good way and how the situation escalated. Note at the end the arrested person saying that he hadn't done anything wrong.. if this body worn video wasn't available how many would believe the man when he's later telling people he didn't do anything and the police were heavy handed. All police have been faced with similar violent people at some point in their career. I've been ran at with an axe is a stair well whilst conducting a safe and well check on the person for example. This is why most officers will use verbal communication as best they can but they have to take charge of the situation in hand as things can change in a split second.

user1473878824 · 30/08/2019 00:37

@SuperSara quite.

OP your teenage son got searched by police. It happens. Get over it. Teach him some respect. He had his hands in his pockets. Took them out. Backed away from a search. Started sweating at officers. Get a fucking grip.

user1473878824 · 30/08/2019 00:39

Have you actually asked them what they do on these walks? Because so many PPs have said they did the same as teens: to smoke a spliff, have a fag.

All your updates don’t seem to do anything other than make it seem like they’re you’re golden boys who do no wrong

BlueBirdGreenFence · 30/08/2019 00:44

What did the policeman pin him to? A wall or the ground?! Tbh my reading so far was that his wrist was held for a minute but if he was pinned to something that was entirely different....

user1471582494 · 30/08/2019 02:12

OP you keep harping on about how your DS2 is 17 and how as he's not an adult he policeman should have de-escalated.
Most 17 years olds look like grown men. How was the policeman supposed to know that he was a scared little child when he presents as an aggressive man?
There's no visible, easily discernible difference physically between a 17 year old and and 18 year old, only legally.

These policemen and women were just wanting to go home safely at the end of the night and for all they knew the aggression your son showed may have prevented that.

Give him a talking to and tell him next time to just co-operate and he'll be let go with no issues.

HennyPennyHorror · 30/08/2019 02:42

User is correct. He's your son and child but out in the world he's a young man. Man being the operative word.

EverTheConundrum · 30/08/2019 02:42

It sounds like you'll believe anything your sons tell you!

user1471582494 · 30/08/2019 02:45

People are urging you to make a complaint. About what exactly? What are you complaining about and what you you like to see as a result?

VeganCow · 30/08/2019 07:41

Your son wouldn't have done well many years ago when this copper would have given him the old 'clip round the earhole' that older people hark back to, for swearing at him...he would have got another from you too once the police brought him back.

Tonnerre · 30/08/2019 07:57

It sounds like you'll believe anything your sons tell you!

Maybe because the police officer agreed with his account?

Ilikethisone · 30/08/2019 08:17

If someone was coming towards me with a sword, in a situation where I had responsibility for de-arming them, I'd do my best to establish a rapport with them, try to understand how they came to be in that situation and get them to put the sword down

OP, think you are taking the absolute piss. Or have that much privilege you have no idea how dangerous people can be.

Horsemad · 30/08/2019 09:00

OP, did you get the stop & search receipt?

ThatCurlyGirl · 30/08/2019 09:28

If someone was coming towards me with a sword, in a situation where I had responsibility for de-arming them, I'd do my best to establish a rapport with them, try to understand how they came to be in that situation and get them to put the sword down

Oh come on. This is at best wildly misinformed and privileged, and at worst totally disingenuous.

OP it is a police officer's responsibility and priority to make a situation safe. If that means proactively disarming the assailant rather than getting them to willingly disarm themselves, they obviously have to do that.

They (including my dad) have to make that life and death decision in a split second and they do it to keep US safe as the public. For us. To minimise the danger to the general public by putting themselves at risk. As per recent news that broke the hearts of myself, everyone else with family and friends in the force and the public as a whole. No offence but I hope you can see now this thread has been reacted to that your comment was absolutely ridiculous.

Which is why this from a PP is spot on:

OP, think you are taking the absolute piss. Or have that much privilege you have no idea how dangerous people can be.

berlinbabylon · 30/08/2019 09:52

Swearing at an officer is being a gobshite

Swearing at anyone is being a gobshite. No need for it. OP you DO need to talk to your kids. It's not about them swearing at police (I don't personally believe they deserve any more courtesy or consideration than anyone else) but police and anyone else being human beings.

I actually misread your OP and thought your son was SLEEPwalking.

QualCheckBot · 30/08/2019 09:56

EverTheConundrum It sounds like you'll believe anything your sons tell you!

Why can't parents actually check what their children are getting up to if out late on the streets at night, without automatically believing the little darlings? Particularly when the youngest little darling here has had problems with the police in the past.

Theres so much anti-social behaviour and petty crime around, so much drugs, much of it caused by youngsters with inadequate parental supervision, yet the OP doesn't even know what her own sons are getting up to when they roam the streets at night!

Buster72 · 30/08/2019 11:41

@Cailleachian
Why does your son feel "less safe" he wasn't threatened was he?
Or is he concerned that next time he is stopped it will be before he had chance to finish his spliff.

Butchyrestingface · 30/08/2019 11:58

If someone was coming towards me with a sword, in a situation where I had responsibility for de-arming them, I'd do my best to establish a rapport with them, try to understand how they came to be in that situation and get them to put the sword down

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

Stonerosie67 · 30/08/2019 12:09

Exactly what I thought Butchy that is possibly the biggest pile of shite I've ever read on here and it's had some stiff competition over the years!!

CharityDingle · 30/08/2019 12:17

If someone was coming towards me with a sword, in a situation where I had responsibility for de-arming them, I'd do my best to establish a rapport with them, try to understand how they came to be in that situation and get them to put the sword down.

And while you were 'establishing that rapport' chances are the sword would have been used and you would be seriously injured or dead. If you do nothing else, watch some of the programmes about the emergency services and the shit they deal with on a daily and nightly basis. You will see there is not much opportunity for 'establishing rapport' in life or death situations.

I'm not sure I believe that your sons are just having 'night air' but either way, had the 17 year old done what he was asked to do and not been abusive, they would no doubt have been left to continue their walk without any further issue.

origamiunicorn · 30/08/2019 13:19

If someone was coming towards me with a sword, in a situation where I had responsibility for de-arming them, I'd do my best to establish a rapport with them, try to understand how they came to be in that situation and get them to put the sword down.

Good luck trying to establish a rapport with anyone who has decided to brandish a sword and approach people with it.

Original poster
Cailleachian · 30/08/2019 13:26

@ThatCurlyGirl

Yeah, I can see why @Nicknacky's approach is much better than mine, but it honestly wouldnt have occurred to me first off. My instinct would have been to talk him down.

I watched the video that @elasticfantastic put up, and I agree, the police handled that very well. But again its not how I would naturally have handled the situation. No way would I have been opening that door while he still had knives in his hands. I would have been trying to establish a rapport and distract him from the knives instead. On reflection that man probably owes his life to people like @Nicknacky being trained police officers and not me and my instincts. I'm sure the thread will be glad to know I have no intentions of joining the force!

I do think I may be somewhat naive. I have broken up a knife-fight once, at the bottom of my old close, basically by talking calmly to both of the men circling each other until one got distracted enough to let the other run for it, dropping the knife on the way out. (But I accept that might have not turned out so well.)

OP posts:
FAQs · 30/08/2019 13:52

5 officers injured by a 18 year old yesterday near me who was reportedly armed with a Machete.

Stonerosie67 · 30/08/2019 13:58

What a pity Cailleachian wasn't there, she could have built a rapport up with the machete maniac and saved those officers....Hmm

ProfessorSlocombe · 30/08/2019 14:11

5 officers injured by a 18 year old yesterday near me who was reportedly armed with a Machete.

Not quite sure how we jump from the legalities surrounding Stop and Search to police dealing with armed and dangerous people in public.

I'm not an anarchist, and we need a properly trained police force. And having a properly trained police force, I am more than happy for them to protect the public how they see fit, and give them the benefit of the doubt while doing so. Bottom line, anyone stupid enough to wave a dangerous weapon of any description around in public should consider themselves lucky if they aren't shot. And I accept police are trained to shoot at the larger target and use dum dum bullets to prevent ricochets, so being shot by a police marksman is likely to end in death.

In the 80s and early 90s in London, the Met made an operational decision (backed with intensive intelligence gathering) and actively pursued armed gangs (when bank and wages snatches were still in fashion). There were several incidents where gangs were killed mid-robbery after ignoring the police warning. I was studying in Woolwich at the time, and our building was briefly locked down, as the police had confronted an armed gang that tried to rob a security van that had just collected from the "Gateway" supermarket which we overlooked. We saw the bodies laid out in the car park from our 4th storey window. I remain quite happy the police did a sterling job, and the men that died would happily have grabbed someone as hostage if they had the opportunity to try and get away.

But we've advanced a bit from stop and search ...

Nicknacky · 30/08/2019 14:20

Op, that’s fantastic that you were able to do that. It’s slightly different when it's you that a person is running toward with a weapon and quite fancies doing you harm. Of course sometimes people can be talked down, force isn’t always required.

And you know your boys and “know” they wouldn’t hurt police officers (although Raoul Mouts mum probably thought the same!) but the officers don’t know your son from Adam so as soon as your son shows any resistance then he will be restrained in some way. If he had swallowed drugs, for example, you would be demanding to know how he got that opportunity whilst detained, wouldn’t you?

But if I had to go for force as my first reaction then I will not be faulted for it unless it is not justified or proportionate.

But policing is one of these jobs that people think they know how to do and think they can do better than those who are trained and experiences in and that drives me up the wall.