A MIL and a dog one......

[MilDog]

I know how much MN like to MIL bash and how divided the opinion on DDogs can be, so I'm steeling myself.....

Background on MIL:
Absolutely lovely woman who I love to bits and she's like a second mum to me.

I can count on 1 hand the number of disagreements we've had over the 20 odd years DH and I have been together. But, for all we get on, we are different personalities and have very different views on life.

Her only downside is that she can be very opinionated and the kind of person who doesn't take well to people disagreeing with her opinion. If I'm brutally honest, the reason there have probably been so few disagreements is because DH and I know when to pick our battles.

Background on DDog:
DDog is a year old and an absolute baby. I am not kidding on this, every morning he needs a cuddle when we get up before breakfast.

He is a big softie and I've seen him stand there and do nothing when other dogs have been snarling and snapping at him. That said, he is a heavy set muscular breed and weighing in at almost 30kg he could do serious damage to another dog or person if he chose to.

DC is 12 and they are best mates. DDog takes more notice of DC than me or DH, he literally has him at a word.

The situation:
A few weeks ago I was out walking DDog and a child (maybe 9/10?) was riding a scooter on the pavement towards us. Despite me having DDog on a short leash walking at heel and trying to keep us both to one side of the pavement, the child rode flat out into us hitting DDog, running over his foot making DDog yelp (I'm fairly sure it was deliberate, no reason otherwise as there was plenty of room and he could've slowed down to pass us).

No drama, but I did have a word with the child and told him to be a bit more careful in future.

A couple of days later same child went to do the same thing again, except this time DDog saw him coming and immediately started growling and snarling at him. I asked the child to stay back until we had passed as clearly DDog was frightened but the child ignored me, got off his scooter, walked straight towards us and put his hands out to try and stroke DDog, who at this point was still snarling and growling and baring his teeth!!

I ended up walking into the road to move DDog away from the situation.

It upset me because as I said, he's usually such a big softie especially with children and he's been around other children since the first incident and hadn't reacted at all. I contacted our dog walker (who is a behaviourist) and had a chat with her, she re-assured me it was a pure fear response but still we've arranged for her to do some sessions with me and DDog to try and get him over this fear and help me distract him and keep him calm if we are ever in a similar situation.

The MIL/DDog problem:
DH and I are supposed to be going to an event this weekend that means we'll be out from around 6pm to 11.30pm (but only 20 minutes from home). DC is quite happy to stay home (lots of family and friends within 10 minutes of our house if needed in an emergency), we've arranged to have him a takeaway delivered from our local place (where the owners know him and us) and dog walker is coming to take DDog out between 7pm and 8pm, after which DDog will do his usually sleep on the sofa and refuse to move.

But MIL has decided that DDog can no longer be trusted around DC and is coming round to sit with him.

Now, normally I couldn't get too worked up over this and this is a perfect example of where I would usually smile and nod and just let her crack on.

However, she is bringing DN with her as she is babysitting for the night. DN is younger than DC and a bit of a handful and DC has said he doesn't want DN here. I think he feels like his "grown up evening" is being ruined and he's a bit gutted.

My second issue with is that DN is not too keen on DDog, not full on fear but nervous because of DDogs size and having not been around dogs very much. DDog can get very boisterous when we have visitors (think of a toddler who's been fed 1kg of sweets) so he goes in his crate - I don't really want him locked in his crate most of the evening while DH and I aren't here!!

My AIBU dilemma:

1. Do DH and I put our foot down and tell MIL she is not to come round with DN, which will probably cause an unholy row and potentially could make life difficult for a while.

2. Smile and let her crack on to keep the peace - and also maybe I am BU leaving DC13 alone with DDog??

For full disclosure, we didn't actually tell MIL about our plans, no reason other that it just hasn't come up but she asked DC about it and it's him she's told she's coming round - she had t actually said anything to us (which I suspect is because she knows we'll push back....,)

What the hell do we do and are DH and I BU????

OP you know the dog and your child. It sounds like they have a fantastic relationship and I would suggest any concerns could be dealt with by DS joining you and dog Walker on a session to look at warning signs and what to do should dog become aggressive. He is not a young child so can learn to be a responsible owner. People are funny about dogs but my nan was hospitalised for several weeks after a cat attack. We have a cat (not the same cat just to be clear) and now DD is 1 no one comments. As for MIL is it realistically she would only 'pop in for half hour without DN'. If it were my MIL I can imagine her staying and talking the ear off poor DS whilst inventing a reason to bring FIL and DN. The CCTV sounds fantastic. Something to consider when DD is a teenager!

"this is a dog which has shown itself to be less predictable than they thought he was"

It growled when a child hurt it and then came towards it.

That is very far from unpredictable behaviour.

Or do you expect dogs to turn the other cheek when hurt?

The next time this dog sees a child on scooter and snarls, growls and bares his teeth with the OP having to pull him out of into the road, that’s ok then?

No, 100% would not be OK, and the possibility is there and that’s why OP is seeing a behaviourist to work with the dog to make sure this doesn’t happen due to the incident she described.

The dog being home with her DS is a completely different scenario.

If we were discussing her 12-year-old DS walking the dog, I’d be in full agreement that would be a bad idea. But we’re not. So ANY post or comparison to a dog outside being controlled by a child is irrelevant.

Quite honestly, if a full-grown GS decides to lunge and go after a squirrel or person or anything else, regardless of whether you were 12 or 22, you might have a job stopping them. Any powerful big dog could pull over their handler if they went suddenly out of control for some reason. That’s why they are (usually) so well trained, to prevent that.

In the house, the OP has described how her DS knows exactly how to control the dog, and move it safely from one place to the next, including crating it. The chances of the dog getting out of control in its home environment with a loved family member after it’s been well exercised by a responsible dog walker in it’s regular routine are tiny.

There are lots of irresponsible dog owners and the vast majority of the attacks you hear about are not from families who trained or treated their dogs properly, understood dog behaviour or sought help when any potential issues arose. They’re from idiots who punished dogs for growling when their children kept bothering the dogs, perhaps hitting them to deter the growling. And at the same time they didn’t prevent their children from doing the problem behaviour, so they’ll let them keep hugging or getting in the dog’s face, following it around. Or they’ll ignore that the dog guards the sofa as it’s territory - it’ll be a quirky thing they laugh off that it growls when disturbed, until one day the kids go to pile on the suds and the dog attacks.

But they won’t write that in the accounts in the tabloids. Of course they won’t- what paper is going to further kick a family whose child is seriously injured or worse?

Unprovoked attacks are rare.

“Or do you expect dogs to turn the other cheek when hurt?”

No I don’t. But he “snarled and growled and bared his teeth” at the scooter child the next day. When without the scooter. So yes, I would have concerns.

But he was on the scooter. He came off his scooter to approach the dog after trying to do the same thing again then continued to ignore the OP's warnings. The dog was reacting to someone hurting him and then trying to approach him. He could also probably pick up that the OP may have been apprehensive about the situation too. You can't just label a dog aggressive because it's reacting to being hurt.

Bertrand the child did have the scooter the second time. The OP says he was “going to do it again” on the scooter, which caused the dog to react, then the kid got off the scooter and approached as the dog “was still snarling and baring his teeth” i.e. continued to react defensively rather than reacted to the kid fresh. I think that’s very different to snarking and baring his teeth at the same kid/any kid who wasn’t on a scooter.

“You can't just label a dog aggressive because it's reacting to being hurt.”
No. You can’t.

bertrand oh I'm sorry that you're being forced to reply and that replying makes you SIGH so dramatically, it must be hard to be so terribly right in amongst a crowd of idiots like us.

It is normal for a dog to react badly to someone who has previously hurt them, especially when that person is coming straight towards them. He growled and bared his teeth. That is normal dog behaviour. It is not a sign of aggression.

“bertrand oh I'm sorry that you're being forced to reply and that replying makes you SIGH so dramatically,”
Happy to reply. I was sighing at the suggestion I expect the dog to “turn the other cheek”

And at no point have I used the word “aggression”

When you sigh in response to someone's reply, it makes you come across a bit twattish and like you think you're above them.

If it's not aggression you're worried about, what is it?

Happy to reply. I was sighing at the suggestion I expect the dog to “turn the other cheek”

Then tell us what you expect a dog who was being approached by someone who purposefully hurt him and proceeded to invade his space to do?

Do you really think the dog knew it was the same boy on the scooter the second time when he growled, snarled and bared his teeth? I don’t. I think the OP is going to have the same situation whenever her dog now sees a kid on a scooter.

nosauce very likely and if I were her, I'd do some desensitization toward scooters in the coming weeks.

Assuming her teenage son will not be on a scooter in the house, however.

Of course dogs can differentiate. Have you ever worked with dogs? Or owned a dog? I've worked in rescues for just over eight years. Dogs recognise people.

And tbh, it doesn't matter what you think. Or what I think. It only matters what the OP thinks. She warned the child, and the child ignored that warning. The OP has also consulted a behaviourist, who confirmed it's fear and that CAN be overcome.

I think the OP is going to have the same situation whenever her dog now sees a kid on a scooter.

Which is why she’s already booked in to do some work with a behaviourist. You are on the wind-up, or you are very hard of thinking, NoSauce, as I have pointed this out and so have other people, AND it’s in the OP.

Of course dogs can differentiate. Have you ever worked with dogs? Or owned a dog? I've worked in rescues for just over eight years. Dogs recognise people

My friends dog was attacked by a black lab as a puppy while out walking, her dog is now 10 and every single time it sees a black medium sized dog it barks and growls. Her dog isn’t differentiating is it?

My friends dog was attacked by a black lab as a puppy while out walking, her dog is now 10 and every single time it sees a black medium sized dog it barks and growls. Her dog isn’t differentiating is it?

Your friend has done her dig a disservice by not getting some help with that after the pup was attacked.

She did get help. She had a one to one trainer work with it which helped a little bit but not enough to eradicate the fear completely.

But that’s beside the point here.

But that’s beside the point here.

I’ve no idea what your point IS any more!

Did she see a behaviourist? Work with the dog after the incident? I'm not saying EVERY dog is able to overcome fear, but a good majority of them, given the proper love, care and hardwork, can.

I have a rescue dog. Goodness knows what happened to her in the past, she came in as a stray, but everytime you go to pet her she flinches. She's treated like a Queen here (because we're big saps 😁). I left that kennels years ago, but still meet up with one particular walker who worked hard with her. My dog goes mental when she sees her, tail wagging, making some god awful noises in her excitement. She knows that woman. She recognizes her. Dogs do recognise people.

Your friend has done her dig a disservice by not getting some help with that after the pup was attacked.

I don't know many people who would call in a dog psychiatrist person if their dog had issues like this, it's very much a new thing

GoosetheCat and NoSquirrels why do you think that your opinions are the only ones that are correct and that anyone who thinks differently is either thick or on the wind up?

I’ve known many dogs over the years that have had negative experiences, some that were rescue dogs and were scared of some really random stuff, their owners really tried hard to help them, one spending £££ over many years to solve the issue and it never resolved it. Some dogs may differentiate and some most definitely don’t in my experience.

The OP has also consulted a behaviourist, who confirmed it's fear and that CAN be overcome.

Not always.

Some dogs are not fixable and some people really need to get that into their heads.

It's extremely offensive to those of us who have spent years de sensitising and counter conditioning and training our fearful dogs.
We already feel like shit.
We don't need people basically telling us the only reason our dog isn't cured is because we haven't trained them well enough.

Some dogs are not fixable.

There are many owners out there who have seen registered behaviourists over a long period of time and their dogs are still fearful.
In the words of the most recent (registered positive only) behaviourist I've spoken to 'this is just who she is'.

I'm sorry, can you point out where I called you thick or a wind up? Because I missed that, and it certainly wasn't my intention to infer that anyone is thick.

I made my points, you made yours. What's the harm in that? You can say what you think, but no one is allowed to disagree? We have as much right to our opinion as anyone else on here, and I have tried to express mine as best I can without insulting anyone (for I am not always the best with putting things into words).

If anyone has been offended or insulted by my posts I apologize, that was not my intention. I just think that, regardless of all our opinions, the OP knows her family (including her dog) best and she should be able to make a decision without feeling judged.

You clearly have your views, and I have mine. And there's nothing wrong with either of our opinions as they are just that, opinions.