How does Jeremy Corbin justify knowing that people will never vote for his party as long as he’s heading it… but he will never leave?

[iwunderwhy]

I’m not debating whether people are right to dislike him or not BUT fairly or not he is pretty universally loathed which makes him a bit like being a 3 legged horse at the Derby.

If you're running a party, company, or country people have got to like you or at least deeply respect your talents and if neither is there surely the decent thing is to step aside.

For the life of me I can’t get my head around how anyone could keep doing this to a country they say they love. AIBU?

Well Corbyn is obviously not universally loathed, hence the gains for Labour at the 2017 general election and the devotion he seems to attract from people who deserted the party when Tony Blair became leader. I agree that this party cannot win with him in power, however, and he should realise this and just go for the good of the country. The Tories are in a terrible state, killing vulnerable and desperate people with their disgusting policies, they've ruined lives and divided the country and this should present a perfect opportunity for a Labour opposition to present a strong alternative vision that people will vote for. This won't happen while Corbyn is leader.

I find it funny how wanting a fair society that dosn't rely on nuclear weapons, a royal family and dosn't support Israeli slaughter of Palestinians is touted as far left.

I don't know which party you have in mind, but the LP is not unilateralist - we tried that with the Foot manifesto. It is not republican. It is HM's loyal Opposition. And it supports a two-state solution in the Middle East, deploring both the suicide bombers and rocket attacks of Hamas and excessive retaliation from the Israeli government.

The Labour Party was founded to seek power by Parliamentary means. To do that, it has to be a mainstream political party and appeal to a broad spectrum of opinions. It wouldn't have lasted this long if it hadn't.

It's current leadership is another matter - but that's already been covered in this thread.

Really like JC, voted for him as leader, really don't like Momentum or the Women's Officer farce which is Lily Madigan, so I had to leave. Gutted.

He was given chance after chance, he has shown himself to be worse than useless.

Labour members and momentum along with the Labour front bench are a cult who have become scared of themselves - so sabotage themselves.

There are people who will never forgive the Labour party (under Blair) for the Iraq war and introducing tuition fees.

There are people who will never forgive the Lib Dems for 'propping up' an austerity Tory government that tripled tuition fees.

There are people that will never forgive the Tory government for austerity policies and for holding a referendum on EU Exit.

There are people who will never forgive the Labour party under Corbyn (not in government) that are proposing introducing policies that are considered by some to be left wing.

I guess at the polling stations people will have to ask themselves which of the above they can actually forgive.

Speak for yourself OP, I like Corbyn.

I wish it were ridiculous to say Corbyn is Motivated by hate, but there is no other rational explanation for his behaviour. Look at who he chooses to embrace. Sinn Fein are taken to his bosom in reaction to the IRAs attempt to murder the democratically elected PM of the UK. Hamas. The wreath laying (present but not involved of course). The way his poor little face contorts with rage when anyone challenges or contradicts him. The mural. English irony. I could go on.
And look at the bile filled, spittle flecked posts of his supporters all over social media. Look at the stampede of anti semites towards him. These are not well balanced, temperate, moderate people. They are very unhappy and very, very angry with those who don’t agree with them.

The Iraq war would have happened anyway, with or without UK participation. USA troops were already massing in Kuwait, while Blair was trying to get UN approval. Tuition fees were introduced to pay for a massive increase in access to a university education. Nearly 50% instead of under 10% in my lifetime. Why should the 50% who would never get the grades pay more tax so the more academic can have 3 years at university and better paid jobs at the end of it? (And why did the 2019 manifesto prioritise largely middle-class students over reversing Tory cuts?)

You underestimate the power of the junior member of a coalition. Without one, there'd have been another GE that Cameron would almost certainly have won, so we'd have had an extra 5 years of the Tories on their own and a referendum sooner.

'introducing policies that some consider left-wing'. No - most people consider too left-wing. The LP has always been left-wing, even under Gaitskell and Callaghan. Corbyn has overstepped the boundary between the LP and the lunatic fringe, driven by ideology and factionalism. Corbyn is as far to the left as UKIP and the BNP are to the right. And those around him, Milne, McCluskey, Murray, Murphy, pulling his strings, would have been kicked out under Kinnock. They are not traditional Labour in any way.

Sorry - 'overestimate, not underestimate.

People will choose which party is the least unpalatable for them given the various actions or policies each have owned. People will rationalise away some of the mistakes made so that they can vote for one or the other with a clear conscience. Some will vote simply because of tribal loyalty.

Some people will find them all so unpalatable they will not vote at all. I have a suspicion that the number choosing not to vote will increase at the next GE unless it becomes a proxy for a second referendum with each party taking a leave or remain stance. Difficult to predict how that will play out.

It depends when the GE takes place. Obviously no point in a Brexit election if we've already left. Unless Johnson does a deal with Farage, the Tories will be very vulnerable before it's happened. And if post-Brexit is as catastrophic as predicted, even more so afterwards.

But one thing is sure, right now, Labour needs a leader who leads and doesn't bugger off on holiday or go to ground just as the Tories are full steam ahead and we're down to the wire. Why hasn't he commented on McDonnell's IndyRef announcements? Has he turned off his phone?

I just want a moderate fair government, and there is no one

This is my view too. If there was an election tomorrow I've literally no idea who I would vote for at the moment.

The Labour Party know they can’t win a general election, that is why they are prepared to throw their Scottish supporters under the bus and do a deal with the SNP. They can only campaign on a “not backing a no deal brexit” because they’d get slaughtered in their non-London constituencies if they were remain, and somehow have to try and appeal to their remain supporters.

If a GE is called the people will vote either remain or Brexit. Essentially Lib Dem vs Tories. Except certain areas will never vote Tory and Brexit party will split the vote. Libdems might retake Sheffield constituencies. Labour will still have some die hard support in their northern heartlands.

JC makes things worse by cosying up to terrorists, his lack of leadership over antisenitism (not a new phenomenon in Labour Party) and his inability to give a clear and straight answer on where he and his party stand on Brexit. He has never put much enthusiasm into campaigning to remain, which makes me think he is pro-Brexit but can’t say so.

JC is incredibly popular with Labour Party members and Unions, but for your average swing voter (not so much). I think he’s a puppet and the show is really run by McDonnell who knows Brexit is a poisoned chalice for labour and will push to lead once that fiasco is over.

I reckon libdems are going to do really well if there is a GE. The other parties not do much. Hung parliament here we come!

My dh witnessed his London office get blown apart (with colleagues still inside) by the ira. It has affected him immensely. For that reason alone I can never vote labour while he is in charge.

Depends if Labour decide to champion Remain. I think they may surprise everyone and decide to take that stance but it will depend what their focus groups tell them.

I do think there is something in what you say about Labour standing back and letting the Tories deal with the challenges of Brexit and then sweeping in a few years down the line. Very hard to predict how things will play out.
I think Lib Dems will still be scarred by austerity. I saw a sky interview with Swinson recently where the interviewer listed all the policies she voted for e g. Bedroom Tax. It was very awkward and Swinson did not handle it particularly well. She kept saying 'we' have lessons to learn blah blah blah.

As some know, and I have a stated a couple of times... I used to be a Labour party member. I have now left, and refuse to vote Labour, for a number of reasons - some are policy based, some quite frankly are personal. Labour under Corbyn have become more obsessed with ideological purity than about winning elections (accusing people of being "Blairite" as if it is an insult).

Many people in the party hate Blair.... the most successful Labour politician in history, leading them to 3 successive GE victories and the longest serving PM in Labour's history. How did he do it? By appealing to the middle ground, and making sure that they attracted and fought for the people who win elections - the electoral middle.

If as a leader you do NOT appeal to this middle ground, and just seek the comfort and ease of appealing to you core voters... then guess what, you will never get into power and will instead always be a party of protest. Oddly enough, that is where I feel Corbyn wants to be - always ready to blame someone else, but never on the spot where he has to make a judgement call.

The fact that we have the most right-wing government in history at the moment, that they are driving us towards a no-deal Brexit to save their party (nothing to do with the country) and Labour who should be so far ahead in the polls they should be out of site are instead still looking for a new fence to sit on. Leadership? No, I don't think so.

As a result, here is one former Labour party member who is now voting Lib Dem.

Typo - should be "sight" - oops

The fact that we have the most right-wing government in history at the moment, that they are driving us towards a no-deal Brexit to save their party (nothing to do with the country) and Labour who should be so far ahead in the polls they should be out of site are instead still looking for a new fence to sit on. Leadership? No, I don't think so.

I completely agree.

Yet a Labour Party member relative of mine insists that if the media weren’t as they are, Corbyn would be a lot more popular. I am sure there is some truth to this, yet this is really not the whole truth. My relative won’t have it however.

The other thing my relative seems to think is that it is somehow the fault of voters that the Labour Party aren’t more popular.

Surely it is up to the LP to appeal to a broad base instead?

I can’t talk to this relative about any of this as it quickly becomes overheated. Especially on her part.

It’s no good trying to counter anything she says with any of the arguments on this thread as she has an answer for all of it. And she is very over emotive about all of it. She makes me feel as if all of my instincts are simply wrong.

But hey ho, she can’t follow me into the ballot box, where I will be voting remain (can afford to as Tories will never get in in my very Labour constituency).

The other argument about the choices parties have made in the past - they have ALL made bad choices. Surely we look at what they plan to do now? I think some of these arguments just become ideologial articles of faith used to discredit voters.

And while I would rather Jo Swinson did not have her particular voting record, at least she is saying that they need to learn from the past.

Same with people like Heidi Allen.

I don’t expect politicians to be pure and perfect, if they now realise certain things and would vote differently, that is okay by me.

Corbyn Labour is almost a religion for some. You cannot criticise him or the pure socialist policies, to do so marks you out as a non-believer. They hate those who vote for the middle ground, the floating voter. If you once voted blue well to hell with you. It’s so incredibly alienating just like the condescending remoaner, you are never going to appeal to the people you NEED to support you by insulting them and refusing to look at things from their point of view.

It’s incredibly frustrating and not really very intelligent, considerate or mature.

It comes down to trust with Jo Swinson. Her voting record is a tad difficult to defend and will be used against her a lot. Austerity and the impact it has had on people will be a significant factor in any GE even one focused heavily on Brexit.

Sorry but long time Labour voter. I will not support at next election. Corbin and left wing drivel ie Diana Abbott are not involved.

I had high hopes for him, but sadly he is ineffectual in opposition. He's had countless opportunities to capitalise on abysmal government mistakes and just hasn't done it. I really don't understand why. I admire his principled stance but you do need a leader who plays politics too. Still, I'd rather him than the current shit show.

It comes down to trust with Jo Swinson. Her voting record is a tad difficult to defend and will be used against her a lot. Austerity and the impact it has had on people will be a significant factor in any GE even one focused heavily on Brexit.

Yes I know and I agree. In that sense she was a poor choice as Lib Dem leader. So I would vote Green.

However it is the Lib Dems who will massively increase their vote share in a GE, and I think remain is such an important part of any future prosperity, I can see why people would ally themselves to that. The loss of prosperity and stability that leaving the EU will incur, especially now that we have who we have in Downing Street trying to undemocratically and unconstitutionally force a no deal Brexit on us, will negate any attempts at a better sharing of that wealth.

We have had three years of both main parties in fighting and navel gazing, apparently unaware that they no longer, if they ever did, represent all of us. At this point, with the dangers looming ahead, I don’t see why centrist Labour and Tory pro EU, or pro leaving with a deal MPs don’t leave their parties en masse. Or at least those MPs that are in remain constituencies. Yet despite how serious the situation is, there is still so much hesitation.

And Johnson’s pathetic attempts at electioneering should send a chill down anyone’s spine. We all know the kind of UK he and that bastard Cummings want to create as soon as they get the chance.

In the current crisis, Jo Swinson's voting record on austerity is irrelevant. She was a v young team member of the junior partner in the Coalition. The only thing that matters is she and her party has always been solidly pro-EU and those who experienced the worst effects of austerity will suffer most if we leave the EU. First things first.

I don't trust Corbyn, precisely because of his voting record, plus speeches at anti-EU rallies, on the issue of the day. He's a Bennite, controlled by Stalinist/Leninist/Trotskyist minders in a way that Benn never was. Everything he's done/hasn't done in the last 3 years has benefited the Leave side.

What's the Leadership doing now? Corbyn is off the grid in Romania and McDonnell is casually rewriting LP policy on IndyRef 2 in armchair chats at the Edinburgh Festival. Meanwhile the Party machine, run by ex-Militant McCluskey puppets, is churning out pre-planned press releases in ever-more desperate attempts to avoid having to talk about Brexit. Ban grouse-shooting? Yes - that'll really help solve the economic Armageddon that awaits.

I had high hopes for him, but sadly he is ineffectual in opposition. He's had countless opportunities to capitalise on abysmal government mistakes and just hasn't done it. I really don't understand why. I admire his principled stance but you do need a leader who plays politics too. Still, I'd rather him than the current shit show.

I agree with this. I would also add that part of the problem is that he has undermined his principled stance wrt Brexit because obfuscation isn't exactly principled!

And appalling in every way though BoJo is (mendacious, elitist, untrustworthy) he has made his stance on Brexit very clear (actually his approach is far too "do or die" but clarity goes down well with the electorate unfortunately.