Aibu to suspect DH of cheating?

[girlsgonetame]

NC'd for this for obvious reasons.

I think my husband is cheating on me but I have absolutely no evidence to back this up. Not sure if I am just going mad! Need you ladies (and gents) to give me some clear headed perspective.

Recently (don't know when but within last year or so) a stunningly gorgeous (very young, 20's) lady has started working at the same company as my DH (51!) I've just got a nasty, niggling feeling.

DH has form for being flirty so not difficult to imagine this new girl has caught his eye.

His behaviour has changed. I can't put my finger on it or even explain it but it has. He was always secretive with his phone but a few months ago he got a new one and has put on a password that I don't know. Before that I did have a snoop through and saw that he had made WhatsApp calls to this girl from work. I knew it was her because of her picture but she was saved in his phone as "Steve Work". No texts, I assume deleted! Not many calls, about 3 over the space of several months. Could be work related.

He also won't tell me anything about this girl, don't even know her name (pretty sure it's not Steve!). Tried casually asking questions but he shrugs me off, says he doesn't know, changes the subject?!

I do sound crazy! Tell me I am not crazy. Or that I am crazy! What do you think, wise mumsnetters?!

bluntness

Even if it’s as you say - he is hiding things due to jealousy - they are BOTH at fault. It’s cyclical. She is jealous and snoops because he lies, and he lies because she is jealous and snoops. They BOTH need to change for it to work moving forward (assuming there is no cheating). He would need to be honest with her and she, in turn, would need to calm down and accept what he is telling her honestly.

@WhoKnewBeefStew

She wanted reassurance that he's not because she doesn't want her life crumbling around her. She still wants that reassurance and she's trying to get the answers she wants by playing down the texts. Better to be married to a sleazy old man than a cheat.

Oh for goodness sake. Most of the things are easily explainable if you live with someone with this level of Jealousy. You would hide stuff to avoid the shite he's going through now, if this is indeed real.

Yes this. A very good male friend of mine has to do this as his wife is jealous, paranoid and regularly snoops into his phone and email. She also keeps him tight on a leash socially and he's rarely allowed out alone. When he does he has to lie and say it's all men even if he's in mixed company.

He's never cheated on her. Never even been tempted. He just likes having a little bit of a private life and his own friends.

Let's reverse this for a moment. If there was a MNer who had a male colleague she was friendly with, and had to hide it from her husband because he would hide her lunch so he could bring it in and check on them, insist on tracking her phone location, and threaten to follow them to the pub... Who would be the bad guy?

Whether he's cheating or not, this relationship is incredibly toxic.

Ok
Let me explain something to everyone saying OP is nuts.
Yes, there's probably a bit if that going on. ( sorry OP, but the tracking is probably a bit to far)

But... men like this love an imbalance of power. They look for women who are a bit insecure, and then they use it so they can get away with tons of crap a more secure and boundaried woman wouldn't put up with.

It means that he can lie, and because she is a bit insecure, ( and knows it) she always questions herself, and he gets away with it.

Meanwhile, because she doesn't know which end is up anymore, but knows something is deeply wrong, she is looking for absolutes. As in " my boundaries are so eroded, that I'm immune to lies and gas lighting, but I KNOW cheating is wrong"
So, because he's managed to confuse you ( for years) you look for the smoking gun, because THAT is what you know is totally wrong.

And you end up doing crazy ass things to find it.

OP I've been where you are more than once ( never again).
Think about what you DO know:
*He lies ( there fore doesn't respect you)
*He actively looks for attention from women
*You know he would stray if given a chance

Do you like the behaviour this is bringing out in you?

Is this enough for you for the rest of your life? Because he won't change.....

IamtheOA I don't think that anyone is doubting that there is something very wrong with a relationship like this. It's just impossible to know what is going on. It could be that the DH is gaslighting OP and driving her nuts but maybe he is doing nothing apart from trying to prevent her snooping and tracking. I also don't really know why she is assuming that he is having an affair with the stunning woman in her 20s. I can see why he would find her attractive but not the other way around.

Have you ever lived with someone who is insanely jealous. You cannot reassure them because they simply do not believe you. They want full in depth details of every single conversation even if you were just chatting about nothing more exciting than last nights Eastenders. They want to know everybody who attended whatever function you were at, what time they arrived what time they left their means of transport what they wore did they look nice. It is constant and unrelenting. Telling a few lies for an easier life is far preferable to the constant reassurance that falls on deaf ears.

Why did he lie?
Why did he change her name in his phone?
Why did he delete messages and lie about them?

Are you the type to feel threatened by every woman he works with? Is it just attractive females you feel threatened by? Did you only start getting these feelings after you saw her at his work?

So many questions.

I can understand your feelings. I've been there too. I was correct. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's right in your case.

Are you sure that this isn't a lack of self esteem getting in the way?

Hello. I haven't really felt up to updating. He didn't arrive home until 5am on Saturday morning. We were supposed to be having a family day out but he spoilt that by being hungover and moody so once we were home and the kids were all settled for the night we had a long, serious discussion about everything

He admitted to me that they get on well and he enjoys her company. He didn't tell me about her because he "knew" I would overreact. Apparently he "knew" as soon as I saw her that day at work that this would become an issue. According to him it's all because of my jealousy and there is nothing between them but friendship

I will admit I have a problem with jealousy. We discussed this last night and I admitted to him that maybe I have been unreasonable in the past but it feels different this time because, in my opinion, there's more to their friendship than he has had in the past with other women. He hasn't become moody and distant before like he has this time

He told me my jealousy is driving him away and making him question our marriage

I want him to stop the friendship but he has refused. He said I need to learn to trust him. Do people agree with this? Not sure he'd be friends with her if she was 50 and 50 stone!

So I feel shit about myself and about my marriage. I have become a crazy lady. I need to work on this somehow, maybe counselling

There are s lot if guys I know who like to have “one as a reserve”. ie they like a woman on the side so they can leave their present partner and be with her should the need arise. A back up plan. God forbid such men should ever be alone, I mean how would they cope without the sex, the poor darlings, they have needs yada yada.
Pathetic and disrespectful.
I think you’ll find having this woman around is making your partner question his life. Whether or not he is the one who has spoiled it will not be considered.
Perhaps you should question your life too and see what you really want.
Sometimes the grass is greener. Sometimes not.

Where was he until 5am? He's turning the tables round to you that it's your fault he's secretive, you're the one pushing him away and if you continue he'll be questioning the marriage more - i.e. warning you off so he can do what he likes without you knowing. He's trying to put you in a box.

I don't know how powerful your situation is - do you have your own income etc so you could live without him?

There's no reason for him to suddenly have a password and be secretive with his phone, is there?! Unless he is hiding something. And it really doesn't matter if this 20 something year old is interested or not, the fact is your husband potentially is and that's obviously not a good thing...

I want him to stop the friendship but he has refused. He said I need to learn to trust him. Do people agree with this? Not sure he'd be friends with her if she was 50 and 50 stone!

So he won't give up a friendship which is affecting his marriage and his wife's mental health.

To me, there is either more to the friendship or more problems with the marriage or both.

Would he go to joint therapy?

OP jealousy can and does push people away. You admit you have a problem with jealousy. So you are asking him to stop a friendship with a work colleague but what have you offered to do in return to help with your jealousy.? If he were to stop this friendship will this help your marriage. You still won't trust him so if he hasnt done anything wrong is he only going to be allowed to talk to men or old ugly women? Neither cheating or jealousy is healthy for a relationship.

I forgot to add to, some men are incredibly naive/stupid to when the line has been crossed from friendship to inappropriateness. Or other women's intentions with what they say. It doesn't excuse them at all it's an explanation sometimes as to why they don't get why the wife might be "jealous"

This scenario is so stereotypical and sadly, there's probably a bit of both of you in the wrong. Yes, your jealousy is probably a turn off. Ironically, it might have been the opposite at the start, making him feel wanted. Then it drove him to start looking at the women that caused you to feel like this. Th as he got closer to them (then maybe he would have if he hadn't starting paying more attention to them), he feels that your jealousy is starting to become irritating.

He's now likely at the point where he is both feeling turned off by yuor jealousy whilst being turned put by the attention he gets from other women. Sadly, this stage usually leads to a full on affair, often not prompted by him but by the girl, to whom he says yes because he wants to recapture the emilotions he had with you, but then protecting his guilt by convincing himself that it is your fault for getting you to pay attention to women because of the jealousy.

Your OH is already at the stage of putting blame on you. I expect there has been no full on affair so far because she hasn't pursued it.

Hi @girlsgonetame
Your feelings are perfectly valid here. If my OH was out until 5am with another women I'd be pretty suspicious too.
However, let me give you an

This seems like a classic DARVO move to me.

It's unreasonable to expect someone to stop being friends with someone.
You cannot control who he talks to. All your doing there is giving him more reasons to lie. Especially as he works with the woman.

You have said you get jealous. You need to work on this. Why? He married you. Why is your self esteem so low?

That being said, I do think there are some odd things here. I do think gut instinct counts for something. And it really does sound like he's interested in her.

I think the only way forward here is to ask for transparency; honesty in your relationship. He can't hide stuff from you and equally you can't get jealous. That way he has nothing to blame and you can clear up some of the messy and confusing stuff (saving her as Steve - why?!)

I, personally, would be on my guard though and keeping my eye out. If you do everything you can to not be jealous, be completely nonchalant about the whole thing and he still pulls away? Yeah, then you've got an issue.

Whoops, sorry...
...Example
My ex p went away to a festival with a friend. When he got there, a female friend of his had just so happened to have a space free just by her and her friends! What a coincidence! He was luckily able to camp with her. Not only this but he asked everyone there not to tag him in any pictures so i wouldn't see what he'd been up to. My ex p was actually very jealous and knew i had male platonic friends and couldn't cope with the fact that i may go off camping with them if he had done the same... Which was his excuse. I was never in the least jealous of him or his female friends, but the fact he had lied to me to control me was not acceptable. And to be clear, he had no reason to be jealous of my male friends who I had been friends with before our relationship began (which I guess is different to your scenario in that this is a new friendship with someone you don't know and he has deliberately kept hidden from you).
Firstly, where does your jealousy come from? Did you have the jealousy issues before your relationship with DH or since you got together?
Do you trust him? It doesn't sound like you do. Have you actually had cause to suspect he has cheated on you before? Or tried to?
What do you really think his motivation for lying to you is? Do you really think your behaviour warrants him having to keep this friendship secret? Or do you think he has more to hide?
It can be very confusing when you are in a relationship like this and you aren't sure whether your behaviour is normal or not.
I guess you need to decide whether you are happy to accept his behaviour. He is basically telling you to like it or lump it with no regard for your feelings at all.
Also, its difficult to trust someone when they have been lying to you and hiding things from you.
Like a PP has said, he has now put all the blame on you. He has said your jealousy is driving him away, what has he actually done to support you with your feelings of insecurity? And it could be very convenient that now your jealousy is driving him away when there is suddenly a young hot woman on the scene.
From someone who has been on the other side of a jealous relationship, I would say that its awful to feel you're not trusted and you have to hide the things you want to do for an easier life. I felt no matter what I did, my ex p never felt loved enough by me. In the end it was too much hard work to try and constantly persuade him that he was enough for me.
So I can see it from both points of view... However his excuses are all very convenient to me.
If I were you I would try and speak to a counsellor. I have had some counseling recently and it definitely helped me to see things from a different angle. Work on yourself first and building your own strength, self esteem and self worth. Then you will be at a better point to be able to think about how you move forward from here.
Please keep us posted x

I have always had a bit of difficulty trusting and have been prone to jealousy. Before DH and I met I was with someone for a few years who cheated on me. DH and I also called it off a few months after we first got together and he went off and slept with other women then we got back together after about 2 months.

He's naturally flirty so whenever we go out he is chatty and charming with the waitresses and barmaids.

He's got a type which I no longer feel I fit. I was young and slim and pretty when we met but now I'm middle aged with 3 children, lumpy and frumpy.

I do think my jealousy is driving a wedge between us and I want to work on it but I also strongly feel that this beautiful young woman can't be doing our marriage any favours. I'm not saying they can't talk but I don't want them to be friends. I don't want them to text and joke about me.

DH said to me that "yes she may be beautiful but I enjoy spending time with her because she's interesting and funny" and he thought that would be reassuring!!!

This seems like a classic DARVO move to me.

Me too. I think OP's jealousy is a handy excuse for him. It doesn't sound like he's tried to reassure her over the years, and he must know about her previous relationship.

I wouldn't trust him with a bargepole, and OP, I think you should start divorce proceedings.

I bet you felt really confused when he said he hid things because of your reaction. His replies sounded plausible to you, so then you started doubting yourself. That's the way it goes, so then you carry on, thinking it's all in your head, while he's taking advantage of the fact that if you complain about something, he'll threaten divorce, to keep you in your place.

This is a bad dynamic to get into, and the answer is to get out of it.

What is a DARVO move ?

DARVO stands for "Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender." The offender may Deny the behaviour, Attack the individual doing the confronting, and Reverse the roles of Victim and Offender such that the perpetrator assumes the victim role and turns the true victim into the wrongdoer. This occurs, for instance, when an actually guilty perpetrator assumes the role of "falsely accused" and attacks the accuser's credibility and blames the accuser of being the perpetrator of a false accusation.
So, it becomes your jealousy that made him have to be secretive, you're being unreasonable about this non sexual friendship that he is lying about and thinking about, that's driving him away....... this is total bullshit. He has lied to you, is gaslighting you and is also laughing at you behind your back with this woman. What a ballbag.

Thanks Giggorata.