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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think a lot of people don't really think of children as people?

299 replies

weaningwoes · 05/08/2019 16:07

So I am a softie and I know it. But so many threads on here have people (who are probably fine people and lovely parents in many ways) advocating such extreme 'briskness' with very young children who are struggling with their feelings that it borders on harshness to me.

Problems with sleeping, giving up bottles/dummies, 'tantrums' (or 'being overwhelmed by emotions' depending on how you feel about that word!), so often the solution seems to be "make them safe and then ignore". There's this fanatical devotion to the idea that "three nights of hell and then that was that" is a good enough outcome to justify what would amount to neglect if it was done to any other group of dependent, vulnerable person, say frail elderly or someone with developmental issues in a care home, and bloody cruel and cold at least if directed to, say, a partner who was crying for some reason.

It feels like a lot of people think their compassion for their children should just stop at 1 minute past bedtime, or the second their feelings or behaviour ceases to be convenient.

I know I sound a judgy bitch, and lots of people will be laughing at me for being so wet. But surely children are real people, even from babies, and there's no reason to imagine they feel what they feel any less truly than we adults do - just that they have far fewer tools to manage and rationalise those feelings!

I don't remember being a toddler but I do remember being a teenager and a small child - how my feelings would take me over and how utterly devastating it was to feel so much and be dismissed, overridden and ignored, even ridiculed for those feelings by adults I loved. Sure, they were right in the scheme of things that I needn't be as upset/passionate about x y z thing, but my feelings were nonetheless genuine. And they hurt!

Surely one doesn't have to agree with someone's assessment of a situation to sympathise with the strength of their emotions about it, especially when it's somebody dependent and helpless, who you love?

Prepared to be told IABVVVU.

OP posts:
DioneTheDiabolist · 05/08/2019 16:12

My children are only part-people. The preteen is almost-people, the toddler is only half-people (the other half being made up of dog, bear, duck, monkey and meercat).

YABU OP.

BarberBabyBubbles · 05/08/2019 16:13

I completely agree with you OP. Sometimes it feels like everyone is leaving their babies to cry. 🙁

timeforakinderworld · 05/08/2019 16:14

I agree OP. I find also that a lot of people in the UK ignore children whereas in other countries they get talked to and included in the conversation a lot more. People seem to think you are weird in the UK if you talk to other people's children.

Jemima232 · 05/08/2019 16:16

If you don't want to be sleep-deprived forever then carry on living through nights/months/years of your child waking ten times a night.

There's a difference between sleep-training and not seeing children as people.

AnastasiaVonBeaverhausen · 05/08/2019 16:21

But all you are seeing is one small snapshot on an internet forum. I don't think you can generalise as to how people see their children from such a small part of a very big part of life.

DoraNora · 05/08/2019 16:22

I find that people that adopt this view either didn't need to sleep train their child (it's so fun when you AND the baby are sleep-deprived) or co-sleeping worked for them and their baby. If one more person on this site mentions Sarah Ockwell-Smith I will scream.

Unfortunately not every solution works for every child and you do what works best for your family, and that includes your child (who is also a person).

I also find these kind of posts incredibly goady and they make me feel like shit even though I know I made the right choice for my DD.

YABU

weaningwoes · 05/08/2019 16:22

Early doors for a verdict but I'm glad at least I'm not the only one. Been reading the Philippa Perry book The Book You Wish Your Parents Had Read and nodding like Churchill all the way through it so thinking a lot about this at the moment!

And I'm not a saint, I do get livid with my toddler sometimes when she's being a pain in the arse with her inconvenient feelings - but I'm able to recognise that this is due to my own strong emotional reactions, not some hard and fast law of the universe about what it is legitimate for her to feel! And I certainly never have the feeling she is behaving "badly" to push my buttons - this is someone who can't get her own shoes on, she's not a master manipulator. So many people seem to have an adversarial, almost hostile approach to their kids, as if they were enemy combatants in a civil war...

OP posts:
AnneLovesGilbert · 05/08/2019 16:24

YANBU.

Smacking is a perfect example and I’m always amazed at the number of people on here who scream LTB if a man chucks a cake in his wife’s vicinity but are fine with someone lamping their kid for misbehaving.

No one is okay with adults hitting each other and yet some people defend physically abusing the small vulnerable children who depend on them. Sure it works because they’re scared to repeat the misdemeanour but do you want to be respected or feared?

Crying is another one.

Woman posts her husband ignored her when she burst into tears during an argument - he's a heartless cunt, LTB, change the locks.

Woman posts she lost it at her toddler and left them sobbing in their room - awww lovey, we all have bad days, you’re a good mum, have some wine.

weaningwoes · 05/08/2019 16:26

@Jemima232

I did sleep deprivation. I could live with that easier than I could worrying about how she must feel crying in the dark all alone. She started sending me out of the room and sleeping through of her own accord at about 2. Everyone told me she would "never" sleep through or sleep by herself if I didn't leave her to cry. They were bloody lying. I hugged her to sleep, whenever she needed me to, until she didn't need me to anymore. And yes sometimes cried because I was so tired. But rather me than her frankly.

OP posts:
timeforakinderworld · 05/08/2019 16:26

Been reading the Philippa Perry book The Book You Wish Your Parents Had Read
I'm reading it too atm - perhaps that's why we agree!

AnneLovesGilbert · 05/08/2019 16:26

I also find these kind of posts incredibly goady and they make me feel like shit even though I know I made the right choice for my DD.

If you’re happy with your choices why would you be annoyed by the OP?

PixieLumos · 05/08/2019 16:27

And I certainly never have the feeling she is behaving "badly" to push my buttons - this is someone who can't get her own shoes on, she's not a master manipulator.

But people do push buttons and people do manipulate - and as you keep pointing out, children are people.

weaningwoes · 05/08/2019 16:28

@AnastasiaVonBeaverhausen I agree, and tried to reflect that in he first part of my post - these are people who are probably very lovely people, and very loving and attentive parents, most of the time. So I can't understand he disconnect where after certain times or over certain things they can just switch that off and behave in a way totally inconsistent with the love they DO feel for their children!

OP posts:
PixieLumos · 05/08/2019 16:30

By the way I completely agree, children are people (obviously Hmm) but children are not adults - I think that’s a distinction some parents are sometimes, however well meaning, reluctant to make.

IfNot · 05/08/2019 16:31

Yanbu. I did do sleep training a bit tbf but at around 1 year and in a pretty soft way ( never more than 3 mins crying cis I couldn't take it). I don't think you need to be a martyr to empathise with how a child feels, generally. Maybe some adults just can't remember any of those feelings?
I think many on here don't see children as people when they say "I don't like other people's children" etc. I always think, but every child is different..they are people!

weaningwoes · 05/08/2019 16:32

@DoraNora not trying to make you feel like shit. As I say I just don't get it. Of course I read loads of stuff which questioned and ridiculed my decisions... But I never felt like an idiot or a mug, because I KNEW that I could never have done what they were telling me was the only sensible thing to do. I felt misunderstood and sometimes very lonely,as it felt like everyone was sleep-training and punishing their babies/toddlers and I was considered permissive, but I never ever felt like a shit parent.

OP posts:
BarbariansMum · 05/08/2019 16:33

Yes, you do sound really wet. But if it makes you feel better to reframe that under the cloak of mummy martyrdom, knock your socks off.

BarberBabyBubbles · 05/08/2019 16:33

Grin I’m reading the Philippa Perry book too!

I’m also very sleep deprived but I will not leave my baby to cry.

BingPot99 · 05/08/2019 16:34

I used to sit with DS for 20 minutes every night after he fell asleep so I could creep away and have a decent chunk of Me time. However there came a point when I got fed up of that and I realised it was actually not doing either of us any favours. He was a toddler not a baby but the tipping point is different for everyone.

I most definitely see him as a person, but it is part of my responsibility as a parent to help DS to be happy, confident and able to get himself to sleep. Also as he gets a bit older to realise that other people have needs and the world doesn't entirely revolve around him.

Incidentally, if I was caring for an elderly /sick adult relative, I would do something similar - check they were physically OK, had what they needed then gradually retreat. It would not be reasonable to expect me as a carer to survive on no sleep, get up and spend half an hour cuddling them every time they woke up or just demanded my attention no matter what else I was doing.

Halloumimuffin · 05/08/2019 16:34

They are people but they aren't developed people. Some of these things you desrcibe can be necessary to help them become so. The reason you wouldn't do it to someone else is because you aren't in charge of teaching them appropriate behaviour that will help them get on in life.

One thing I do hate though, which you describe, is the dismissal of children's feelings as nothing. If I was upset as a child my parents couldn't be faster to tell me that being a kid was easy and amazing and just wait until you're older and have real problems. Great. Actually I hated being a child and much prefer my adult life.

weaningwoes · 05/08/2019 16:34

@PixieLumos but you need theory of mind to do that which toddlers just don't have. We of course know they are people - they don't understand that we are!!Wink

OP posts:
IfNot · 05/08/2019 16:35

Also they have a different perspective to us and find it hard to rationalise. My dc will be anguished over some small embarrassment or failure and I have to remind myself how BIG small stuff can feel in the adolescent years. I have found that even just saying," I know how you feel-I have felt that too but it will be ok" helps a lot.

DoraNora · 05/08/2019 16:35

@AnneLovesGilbert

I am happy with my choices as I now have a very happy DD who is no longer tired all the time (and to be honest didn't cry much at all), but it is of course hard to hear your child cry and when people call you 'inhuman' and 'evil' (not the OP's words, the words of commenters on another thread) it is going to make most people feel shit.

Motherhood/parenthood is full of people who take other's parenting decisions extremely personally and as a comment on their own choices.

Whisky2014 · 05/08/2019 16:36

I agree with you, op.
My friend is always moaning about her baby. She had him and 2 days later was moaning about him. I was Confused. It's horrible to listen to.

Jemima232 · 05/08/2019 16:36

Sleep-training is not punishing children, OP.

Get a grip.

It's a parent's duty to show the child who is in charge. It has nothing to do with being nasty to children. It's about setting up boundaries in order to prepare them for the world.