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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think a lot of people don't really think of children as people?

299 replies

weaningwoes · 05/08/2019 16:07

So I am a softie and I know it. But so many threads on here have people (who are probably fine people and lovely parents in many ways) advocating such extreme 'briskness' with very young children who are struggling with their feelings that it borders on harshness to me.

Problems with sleeping, giving up bottles/dummies, 'tantrums' (or 'being overwhelmed by emotions' depending on how you feel about that word!), so often the solution seems to be "make them safe and then ignore". There's this fanatical devotion to the idea that "three nights of hell and then that was that" is a good enough outcome to justify what would amount to neglect if it was done to any other group of dependent, vulnerable person, say frail elderly or someone with developmental issues in a care home, and bloody cruel and cold at least if directed to, say, a partner who was crying for some reason.

It feels like a lot of people think their compassion for their children should just stop at 1 minute past bedtime, or the second their feelings or behaviour ceases to be convenient.

I know I sound a judgy bitch, and lots of people will be laughing at me for being so wet. But surely children are real people, even from babies, and there's no reason to imagine they feel what they feel any less truly than we adults do - just that they have far fewer tools to manage and rationalise those feelings!

I don't remember being a toddler but I do remember being a teenager and a small child - how my feelings would take me over and how utterly devastating it was to feel so much and be dismissed, overridden and ignored, even ridiculed for those feelings by adults I loved. Sure, they were right in the scheme of things that I needn't be as upset/passionate about x y z thing, but my feelings were nonetheless genuine. And they hurt!

Surely one doesn't have to agree with someone's assessment of a situation to sympathise with the strength of their emotions about it, especially when it's somebody dependent and helpless, who you love?

Prepared to be told IABVVVU.

OP posts:
whatthehelldowecare · 05/08/2019 19:33

I can still vividly remember staying with my aunt when I was younger - maybe about 9-13ish and being told exactly when and what I could eat/drink/do. Not in an abusive/neglectful way or anything, just a definite air of 'I'm better than you because I happen to be an adult'

For example, I'd ask to go get a drink, and be told to wait and I'd get one when she was ready. That was completely alien to me, at home if I wanted a drink I'd go help myself, I'd have a say in what we were eating (within reason) and was always treated as an equal. The way I was made to feel at my aunts stays with me to this day

whatthehelldowecare · 05/08/2019 19:33

I can still vividly remember staying with my aunt when I was younger - maybe about 9-13ish and being told exactly when and what I could eat/drink/do. Not in an abusive/neglectful way or anything, just a definite air of 'I'm better than you because I happen to be an adult'

For example, I'd ask to go get a drink, and be told to wait and I'd get one when she was ready. That was completely alien to me, at home if I wanted a drink I'd go help myself, I'd have a say in what we were eating (within reason) and was always treated as an equal. The way I was made to feel at my aunts stays with me to this day

whatthehelldowecare · 05/08/2019 19:33

I can still vividly remember staying with my aunt when I was younger - maybe about 9-13ish and being told exactly when and what I could eat/drink/do. Not in an abusive/neglectful way or anything, just a definite air of 'I'm better than you because I happen to be an adult'

For example, I'd ask to go get a drink, and be told to wait and I'd get one when she was ready. That was completely alien to me, at home if I wanted a drink I'd go help myself, I'd have a say in what we were eating (within reason) and was always treated as an equal. The way I was made to feel at my aunts stays with me to this day

whatthehelldowecare · 05/08/2019 19:34

Oh my, no idea why the posted 3000 times... apologies

screamer1 · 05/08/2019 19:40

Ok so what would people do in this example? Very strong willed 3 year old who refuses to walk anywhere, and refuses to go in the buggy. We walk to the shops with her promising she won't cry, every time without fail she screams (and I mean hysterically screams) all the way home demanding to be picked up.

I can't pick her up and carry her. I tell her I understand she doesn't want to walk, but I can't carry her as she's too heavy. Is this being abusive? Uncaring?

screamer1 · 05/08/2019 19:40

Ok so what would people do in this example? Very strong willed 3 year old who refuses to walk anywhere, and refuses to go in the buggy. We walk to the shops with her promising she won't cry, every time without fail she screams (and I mean hysterically screams) all the way home demanding to be picked up.

I can't pick her up and carry her. I tell her I understand she doesn't want to walk, but I can't carry her as she's too heavy. Is this being abusive? Uncaring?

screamer1 · 05/08/2019 19:40

Ok so what would people do in this example? Very strong willed 3 year old who refuses to walk anywhere, and refuses to go in the buggy. We walk to the shops with her promising she won't cry, every time without fail she screams (and I mean hysterically screams) all the way home demanding to be picked up.

I can't pick her up and carry her. I tell her I understand she doesn't want to walk, but I can't carry her as she's too heavy. Is this being abusive? Uncaring?

screamer1 · 05/08/2019 19:40

Ok so what would people do in this example? Very strong willed 3 year old who refuses to walk anywhere, and refuses to go in the buggy. We walk to the shops with her promising she won't cry, every time without fail she screams (and I mean hysterically screams) all the way home demanding to be picked up.

I can't pick her up and carry her. I tell her I understand she doesn't want to walk, but I can't carry her as she's too heavy. Is this being abusive? Uncaring?

screamer1 · 05/08/2019 19:40

Ok so what would people do in this example? Very strong willed 3 year old who refuses to walk anywhere, and refuses to go in the buggy. We walk to the shops with her promising she won't cry, every time without fail she screams (and I mean hysterically screams) all the way home demanding to be picked up.

I can't pick her up and carry her. I tell her I understand she doesn't want to walk, but I can't carry her as she's too heavy. Is this being abusive? Uncaring?

screamer1 · 05/08/2019 19:41

Clearly something up with posting from the app. Sorry!!

Teachermaths · 05/08/2019 19:44

I did sleep deprivation. I could live with that easier than I could worrying about how she must feel crying in the dark all alone

Good for you. Plenty of women can't and long term sleep depravation can lead to PND, anxiety and depression. Don't make those women feel even more guilty. Sleep training brought me back my sanity. I returned to work when lo was 7 months (had to pay the bills). At this point I was waking 3 times a night and trying to teach full time. It wasn't pretty and resulted in something close to a mental breakdown. I sleep trained at about 8.5 months and suddenly I was a reasonable human being again. My child isn't damaged, unloved, and is most definitely a real human. I am human too and needed to sleep.

Your posts are incredibly judgemental towards anyone who hasn't parented exactly as you see fit.

quizqueen · 05/08/2019 19:44

There is a very wide range between abuse/neglect and indulgence; as with everything there has to be a happy medium. However, it is the job of a parent to raise their offspring to be as independent as possible and that cannot be compared to some of the examples you gave like care for the frail elderly. No child really benefits from constant attention on tap, in my opinion and adults who always put the wants of the child first ( like not going to bed at a reasonable time ) are not doing the child any favours.

Squashpocket · 05/08/2019 19:52

I wouldn't have dreamt of allowing my pfb to cry for a minute. Sadly I didn't have that luxury with the second. When ds2, at 12mo, started demanding that I sit in the chair with him from 3-4:30am every night, sleep training happened. I couldn't look after two children all day on terrible sleep. It took one night and he started sleeping 7pm - 7am.

My pfb is 3 and still wakes up in the night, can't entertain himself, thinks he's the centre of the universe, which is exactly what I taught him. Wish I'd been stricter sooner.

quizqueen · 05/08/2019 19:53

screamer1.

I would let her walk to the shops but take the buggy with me with the shopping bags on the seat and her holding on to the side. When she started screaming, I would INSIST ( you are the one in charge) she sat in the buggy. If she wants to walk, fine, then she stops screaming or she returns to the buggy. She has two choices but being carried is not one of them!

Siameasy · 05/08/2019 20:03

The problem is with society but mums get the blame. Attachment parenting/gentle parenting is misogynistic, keeps women down and isn’t compatible with modern society.
The nuclear family is not how we are meant to live-we are meant to live in groups. Thus you would have adult company, adult help, support from other adults for adult authority and the kids would have other kids to play with whilst you got on with stuff.
Now it’s some poor mum with a child on her own all day - by 7pm she’s had enough. Anyone would be depressed by that but we pathologise it and give a pill.

Venger · 05/08/2019 20:04

I do the same as quizqueen with my 2yo. If she starts refusing to walk or trying to take her reins off then she is offered the choice of keep walking or go in the pushchair for a little rest. If she still refuses then I tell her, walk or you are going in the pushchair. If she carries on refusing then into the pushchair she goes. She will scream in temper and will try the usual tactics of planking, trying to slide out, etc but tough luck, I have places to go and things to get done. Usually within a minute or two of going in the pushchair she calms down which is when I explain to her why she was put in it.

53rdWay · 05/08/2019 20:06

Attachment parenting/gentle parenting is misogynistic, keeps women down and isn’t compatible with modern society.

I haven't found it so? But then there is a lot that gets classed as 'attachment parenting/gentle parenting' which I wouldn't put under that banner either. People criticising it, I find, often don't distinguish between it and 'totally permissive parenting with no boundaries'.

OhNotNowBernard · 05/08/2019 20:07

@screamer1 it’s not abusive but it sounds like you need a solution
Scooter?
Buggy pushed empty until she gets tired?
Small rewards for good walking? Stickers or a tv show?
Earlier in the day?
A small snack for the way back such as a banana?
Allowing time to rest on a bench and chat then restarting?
Balance bike?

Mummyoflittledragon · 05/08/2019 20:09

My dd used to let out a few cries to settle herself and go to sleep. I don’t consider that controlled crying. Some babies just do that apparently. I was right beside her. The only thing I did, which broke my heart was leave dd to cry if she woke in the night from about 18 months. If I went to get her, she would want to play and refuse to settle for 3 hours and I couldn’t cope with the sleep depravation. I could tell she wasn’t ill etc. Dd just woke during the night one time and from then on she woke at the same time for the few nights and this was the only way to break the cycle.

As for children being people, of course they are. I do have to catch myself to not please dd too much. It isn’t good for her to always have what she wants.

socksforfox · 05/08/2019 20:11

F

ethelfleda · 05/08/2019 20:17

I agree with you OP.
There are a lot of posters on here (and people in real life) who can’t seem to comprehend that the child who didn’t ask to be born isn’t just an inconvenience but an ACTUAL person with feelings!

NaviSprite · 05/08/2019 20:17

Welp as a mum of twins so I’ve had to leave them to cry, sleep train them and leave them to tantrum sometimes, to see to the needs of the other. Let’s face it we do usually know the difference between overwhelmed crying and attention crying - if you’ve never had the second there then I bow down to you (honestly I would love some tips on not having one go into attention crying thus setting the other off into the same until it results in real crying because they’ve wound themselves up!)

Now they’re toddlers it’s even more difficult. A favourite of my DD is to be perfectly content until I approach DS and she then goes into complete meltdown. Scream crying, throwing her teddies/good/drink/toys etc. on the floor, the works - I know it’s because she sees it as unfair if she isn’t picked first - but if DS needs his nappy changing she has to lump it I’m afraid... I tell her firmly she can’t always go first and her DB needs his nappy changed and then repeat. So if that makes me a bit heartless as a mum in the minds of folks who don’t believe in the ‘harder’ or ‘stricter’ approach then 🤷🏻‍♀️

PotolBabu · 05/08/2019 20:22

You offer her a choice, walking or buggy. Take the buggy with you. When she starts screaming you say, ‘you can choose between the buggy and walking.’ If she continues screaming, then give her another warning and put her in the buggy. She can scream there rather than holding your hand and screaming. Offer a hug, if it is refused, carry on walking for a bit. Offer hugs whenever you can but don’t bring up the walking issue again. Don’t offer the chance of walking because it will trigger this cycle needlessly.
In a few days she’ll get that it might be easier to be in the buggy and be quiet or walk quietly. It may take more than a few days.
When she is calmer (ie many hours later) you can ask her WHY she screams. Reiterate that you won’t pick up and it’s buggy or it’s walking. Empathise with how difficult it must be to walk when you are tired so you have the buggy but ‘Mummy doesn’t carry big girls anymore.’ Repeat ad nauseum at home.
The change will be slow but steady.
Also when she is in the buggy (because she threw a tantrum and you had to put her there) give her something- a doll, a toy, a book to distract her. If she chucks it remove it and say calmly ‘we do not throw.’ Carry on as before. She will also realise at some point that being offered entertainment in the buggy is better than walking and screaming all the way home.
Last tip: practise short walks sans buggy. So walk to the end of the road. If she does that without shouting, loads of praise. Now walk a bit further. Do practise walks and offer praise. We call ours ‘chatty walks’ where we ‘chat’ aka the toddler asks me inane questions and I attempt to answer them enthusiastically.

Oysterbabe · 05/08/2019 20:25

@screamer1 maybe a scooter or a buggy board?

24hourhomeedderandcarer · 05/08/2019 20:27

its not soft its called gentle-attachment parenting,ive followed this since 04 so i agree with you 100%

tbh its nice to find someone who agrees with my way of life as i hate society's way of bringing up children and though i was in the minority

kids are meant to shut up when told so, in school sit there and do that even if you dont want to
their opinions dont matter or get listened to as they are to young to make one and must do what adults say.

eating and sleeping is another one,we wouldnt tell a adult its tired so you have to be in bed by 7 so why do we expect children to do so ,its because their adult in charge have said so

a child will ask for food when he/shes hungry but no you must wait till i the adult decides when its dinner time.no way would you tell a adult that

in our house we are 4 equal humans and have been since birth

ive always been different though and followed my own path away from everyone else

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