AIBU to think a lot of people don't really think of children as people?

[weaningwoes]

So I am a softie and I know it. But so many threads on here have people (who are probably fine people and lovely parents in many ways) advocating such extreme 'briskness' with very young children who are struggling with their feelings that it borders on harshness to me.

Problems with sleeping, giving up bottles/dummies, 'tantrums' (or 'being overwhelmed by emotions' depending on how you feel about that word!), so often the solution seems to be "make them safe and then ignore". There's this fanatical devotion to the idea that "three nights of hell and then that was that" is a good enough outcome to justify what would amount to neglect if it was done to any other group of dependent, vulnerable person, say frail elderly or someone with developmental issues in a care home, and bloody cruel and cold at least if directed to, say, a partner who was crying for some reason.

It feels like a lot of people think their compassion for their children should just stop at 1 minute past bedtime, or the second their feelings or behaviour ceases to be convenient.

I know I sound a judgy bitch, and lots of people will be laughing at me for being so wet. But surely children are real people, even from babies, and there's no reason to imagine they feel what they feel any less truly than we adults do - just that they have far fewer tools to manage and rationalise those feelings!

I don't remember being a toddler but I do remember being a teenager and a small child - how my feelings would take me over and how utterly devastating it was to feel so much and be dismissed, overridden and ignored, even ridiculed for those feelings by adults I loved. Sure, they were right in the scheme of things that I needn't be as upset/passionate about x y z thing, but my feelings were nonetheless genuine. And they hurt!

Surely one doesn't have to agree with someone's assessment of a situation to sympathise with the strength of their emotions about it, especially when it's somebody dependent and helpless, who you love?

Prepared to be told IABVVVU.

Well, that sounds like children who will be well equipped for adult life

I don't think the difference with tantrums is whether you leave them to it or not, because you have to leave them to it to some degree no matter what your approach to parenting is. Not like you can reason with them mid-tantrum.

Bigger difference is seeing tantrums as being overwhelmed by emotions beyond the toddler's control, vs. seeing tantrums as bad behaviour that needs to be punished.

I think you need to find the balance between being caring and also teaching your child. E.g. with above pushchair scenario, i think you need to be firm and consistently apply that no carrying rule otherwise your toddler will always expect to be carried forever more. Sometimes parenting means making uncomfortable choices...no one wants their toddler to be upset but if you don't teach them boundaries how will they learn?

My mil is a domineering control freak however and tries to treat my toddler as a second class citizen...doesn't give her the nice food the adults are having at her house, tries to force feed her and force nap times and thinks it's fine to leave her crying or in her cot for ages when she looks after her, and wanted me to do controlled crying saying my baby was just trying to manipulate me!! We have had to have words as i saw all of that as cruel and unneccesary especially as i was one of the lucky ones with a pretty easy going baby who slept through mainly!!

I believe you can’t spoil a child with affection. I believe that loads of love and support, as well as firm boundaries, are the way to go.

Nah small kids are a fucking nightmare. The only cure is growing out of it.

People my arse. They're tiny narcissistic whirlwinds of selfishness.

I know exactly what you mean OP. Hitting children, in any scenario, to any extent, 'in a controlled way, just to teach a lesson.' No, its because they're smaller than you, that's why.
Another thing I can't bear - making a child wait to go to the toilet. You can see the worry and the panic, just why?? What adult has to do that, ever? If you need the toilet, you get to get up and go to the goddamn toilet.
It's only quite recently that children got any pain relief in hospital like an adult would.

Just to add I have always seen my twins as people, they have been very individual in personality from the moment I got to meet them. I love them dearly and would give them the world if I could.

But I can’t, all I can do is teach them to the best of my ability and that’s that. To judge my parenting style as harsh is offensive to say the least. Just because not all parents subscribe to the soft approach does NOT make us neglectful, nor does it mean we see our children as inconveniences.

From the softer side of parenting, rather than getting annoyed that my twins decide some days to throw their food everywhere (even after insisting they’re hungry) and create a nice collage for me to clean up, I politely ignore their antics because I know that playing with their food is as important as eating it when it comes to developing a healthy relationship with food. But the Grandparents of my twins have opposite opinions on this, My Mum and Step Dad agree to let them get on with it and then give them a bit of time before offering them something to eat again.

MIL and FIL think I should be stricter and make them know with no uncertain terms that they are to eat their food or leave it on their plate/in bowl, not drop it all over the floor and take the food away if they do start to throw it.

Both sides have valid reasons for their opinions. Just like parents have varying opinions on how best to raise a child. All we can do is muddle through as best we can and try our best by our children. The judgment from other parents could be done without TBH.

We live in an area with loads of hills and she's a liability on a scooter. I can't carry shopping and push a pram as well as keep her and my 4 year old together both walking. So the options are she walks all the way, or is in the pram all the way. I give her these choices at home. She always choose to walk.

I've actually just started star charts today and it was much better.

Anyway I don't want to detail thread with one specific issue - it was just an example of how empathetic and understanding parenting can't always avoid hysterics and upset.

I wish people would understand that sleep deprivation doesn’t just impact on the adult.

You are being cruel to your child by not getting them in a routine where they are well rested and ready to face the day.

I agree with Phillipa Perry that children are people you build a relationship with, it's not about lion taming (not her words).

I also agree with her that parenting opens old wounds.

It's also really really difficult.

You have to practise a bit of self preservation or you will go nuts.

Nah small kids are a fucking nightmare. The only cure is growing out of it.

People my arse. They're tiny narcissistic whirlwinds of selfishness.

Oh my god, yes. I love my 2yo very, very much but she can be such an arsehole sometimes. Obviously I don't tell her this to her face but there are times when she's flailing around the floor because she wanted Weetabix and I made her Weetabix but it turns out she didn't want the next available Weetabix in the sleeve, she wanted the one midway down the sleeve that's underneath four or five other Weetabix. And she wanted them in the pink bowl with the red spoon not the blue bowl with the yellow spoon even though every morning for the last week she has specifically asked for the blue bowl and yellow spoon. There is nothing wrong with her, there is no hurt or harm that has happened to her, she doesn't need me to acknowledge her feelings or try and discuss the situation. She just needs to suck it up and eat the fucking Weetabix like she asked for then we can all move on with our lives.

I completely agree with you OP.

It doesn’t mean that my kids don’t push me to my limit or that I don’t have boundaries. I’ve done and said things I regret but thankfully letting them cry alone at night in their own room is not one of them.

On another thread a while back someone said “but children don’t remember before they’re 3 anyway” as if to say how you parent until that age is irrelevant when we know those years are actually the most critical.

OP, your kid will be probably be the kid at school who is THE MOST IMPORTANT PERSON IN THE WORLD.

I think the vast majority of parents do so in the way they think is best for their child. It's really no one else's place to pass judgment (so long as it's not abuse obviously ).

I do agree with @HaileySherman and this is how I try to parent and sleep training wasn't for us, but you can give an opinion on something and just because it's different from an others, doesn't mean you are judgy.

I always think it must be hard for our little ones to navigate their way through life, we are here to support them in the best way we know how.

I think it’s so easy for some of us to get lost in our own good natured children’s little fog though. I’ve never need to sleep train I just sit him down and he sleeps, he literally didn’t cry for the first two weeks just grumbled and still at basically 5 months he only whinges if he’s hungry/dirty or rarely over tired.. and the over tireds been a whole 3 times from 6 weeks. 2 of 3 were vaccination related (doesn’t like being too hot so fought sleep with a fever).

He’s literally the easiest baby most of my family have met. My neighbours bar one haven’t seen him awake.

But I have also experienced his hell raiser of a cousin.. that kid will have an Oscar one day. And typically my family can only say they’ve met one child like him.. me apparently I was stronger willed than most adults and a complete no limits solider.

Obviously it’s easy for me to say you don’t need to let them cry (I understand it’s early days) they’re crying for a reason but that’s my experience.. my mum had the polar opposite. I definitely don’t believe in smacking.. you can’t teach hitting is wrong by hitting back.

Venger sorry, that just made me laugh out loud 😂😂😂 ( in a good way)

Children are kind of proto-people. Childhood is shaping them into being people.

I agree with the op.

When I take out the cheese out of the cheese and ham sandwich for my 14 mo ds as I know he won't eat it with cheese in, DH says I'm pandering (he was being extremely grumpy, doesn't usually.)

And yet he demanded we sent back the steak that was a bit too over cooked for his mum on Friday.

And certainly likes it when I pick up a sandwich he likes for him, making sure it's got some key things he likes in it. And that's not pandering?

It's just being respectful; I'll never understand this thing about kids and pandering when it comes to food choices.

You are being cruel to your child by not getting them in a routine where they are well rested and ready to face the day.

Oh right, I’ll make sure to press the magic Sleep button at night next time I have a non-sleeping baby

You can’t actually force another human to sleep. You can set the conditions up right, and of course you should, but many times that doesn’t magically turn them into good sleepers and stop them waking up.

Sleep deprivation is hell on earth as it is, please don’t pile extra stress on already-desperate parents by telling them they’re being cruel by not having fixed it.

Children are people, yes, but they are not fully formed adults. They are relying on you as a parent to prepare them for the world and teach them how to behave. And no, that doesn't mean sucking the individually out of them - it means teaching them that they aren't the centre of the universe and sometimes as a parent you have to say no, for their own safety and to help them become adults that are capable of making good decisions. They don't understand the world yet. You are letting them down if you don't prepare them properly for real life.

@24hourhomeedderandcarer
I make meals at certain times for children and adults. They are treated the same. No way am I going to make lots of meals at different times to respond to the exact moment when every individual wants a meal. Your idea of feeding children and adults exactly when they want only works if all people are doing is snacking 24/7. And young children do not yet understand that if they go to bed at 12pm when they want to, they will be grumpy and over tired when they get woken at 6am. Because most parents actually need to do things in the day.
Children and adults need to have their needs met and some of their wants, but they also need to fit in with those around them.

Thank you @Venger for putting it better than I managed 😂

@tigger001 I agree, in that sleep training isn’t for everyone and it doesn’t make one parent better than another if they did or didn’t/don’t do this. For me it’s about keeping my sanity, but I follow my instincts (as most of us do) and adjust my ‘expectations’ of my twins depending on the sort of day they’ve had, if they’re teething, if they go to sleep fine but then wake up crying etc then I will go to them.

But if it’s a full on “don’t want to go to sleep even though I’m clearly knackered” tantrum from them, I don’t go back straight away and do the two minutes, five minutes, ten minutes between (don’t want them to feel I’m abandoning them but likewise don’t want them to feel that they can control my behaviour with tantrums). I didn’t start their sleep training until around 14 months old as my opinion is a baby doesn’t cry for no reason, even if it’s not apparent to us - they need to be comforted. But wilful toddlers are a completely different kettle of fish 😂

I do however feel judgment from OP’s original post because of her inference that it is neglectful to, for example, leave a child to cry it out as any other vulnerable groups treated in the same manner would result in an accusation of neglect.

I can usually understand when these threads pop up in the forms of ‘saw XX Mum/Dad shouting at/smacking their kid AIBU to say that’s not how we should raise our kids’ but an AIBU about sleep training, leaving a child to tantrum etc. is because the parents don’t see their children as people is offensive.

Another thing I can't bear - making a child wait to go to the toilet. You can see the worry and the panic, just why?? What adult has to do that, ever? If you need the toilet, you get to get up and go to the goddamn toilet.
Little kids can not wait long to go to the toilet. But like most adults I do often have to wait to go to the toilet. At work, when looking after kids, when driving in the car.