AIBU to think a lot of people don't really think of children as people?

[weaningwoes]

So I am a softie and I know it. But so many threads on here have people (who are probably fine people and lovely parents in many ways) advocating such extreme 'briskness' with very young children who are struggling with their feelings that it borders on harshness to me.

Problems with sleeping, giving up bottles/dummies, 'tantrums' (or 'being overwhelmed by emotions' depending on how you feel about that word!), so often the solution seems to be "make them safe and then ignore". There's this fanatical devotion to the idea that "three nights of hell and then that was that" is a good enough outcome to justify what would amount to neglect if it was done to any other group of dependent, vulnerable person, say frail elderly or someone with developmental issues in a care home, and bloody cruel and cold at least if directed to, say, a partner who was crying for some reason.

It feels like a lot of people think their compassion for their children should just stop at 1 minute past bedtime, or the second their feelings or behaviour ceases to be convenient.

I know I sound a judgy bitch, and lots of people will be laughing at me for being so wet. But surely children are real people, even from babies, and there's no reason to imagine they feel what they feel any less truly than we adults do - just that they have far fewer tools to manage and rationalise those feelings!

I don't remember being a toddler but I do remember being a teenager and a small child - how my feelings would take me over and how utterly devastating it was to feel so much and be dismissed, overridden and ignored, even ridiculed for those feelings by adults I loved. Sure, they were right in the scheme of things that I needn't be as upset/passionate about x y z thing, but my feelings were nonetheless genuine. And they hurt!

Surely one doesn't have to agree with someone's assessment of a situation to sympathise with the strength of their emotions about it, especially when it's somebody dependent and helpless, who you love?

Prepared to be told IABVVVU.

I didn't sleep train because I didn't have to be up at stupid o'clock in the morning 8 weeks after the birth (as it happens to many women in many countries). I had the time to wake up n-th times a night and take the morning easy.

I also don't have a job where someone's life depends on me and where I have to be alert and well rested.

So, it depends on the situations OP. I don't believe in physical punishments or shouting, but I on other aspects I avoid judging as I'm not in those people's lives and we all make mistakes as parents.

Don't try getting militant about parenting styles, it's a battle nobody can win. I'm on a gentle parenting group where one member compares the occasional screen time with slapping or giving your kids cigarettes, and she's quite vocal that anyone who thinks differently is an abusive parent. Not so gentle, is it?

The idea that every bad sleeper will suddenly start sleeping 12 hours through if you’re firm enough with them is a bit naive, to be honest.

But then I think the people who say “we did controlled crying for 3 nights and it’s been great ever since, he just grizzled a bit and then he got the hang of it!” clearly had a different type of baby to mine.

People often confuse this with spoiling children, it’s not what it’s about. My children have rules, I go to the loo alone, get second hand clothes mainly, I check their behaviour as needed, I don’t have video games here, they do work they need to do, help with chores and so on.

What I don’t relate to is the reaction some people have to distress or fear in children. That’s when it’s dehumanising. If my child has real terror at night I don’t close the door and sit it out, I’ll cuddle them in bed. When they calm down if still they stay there, if they are kicky or deliberately not sleeping they go back. If they are screaming in a crowd, I comfort... yet I see some drag kids in irritation who are clearly scared. When my children are sullen I ask them, sometimes there’s a real reason such as a headache or fear. Yet I often see at workshops for children children being forced and sneered at who are reluctant.

I am sometimes crabby, sometimes not hungry, sometimes scared as an adult. I think it’s about when children aren’t allowed these emotions it crosses the line. Often rules and routines go before feelings, people don’t check the problem or are even annoyed in isolation.

It’s not everyone, but on a daily basis I see adults treating children unkindly, or even bullying. Occasionally assault (the legal smacking kind or dragging kids roughly that’s not legal for adults)

People often confuse this with spoiling children, it’s not what it’s about. My children have rules, I go to the loo alone, get second hand clothes mainly, I check their behaviour as needed, I don’t have video games here, they do work they need to do, help with chores and so on.

What I don’t relate to is the reaction some people have to distress or fear in children. That’s when it’s dehumanising. If my child has real terror at night I don’t close the door and sit it out, I’ll cuddle them in bed. When they calm down if still they stay there, if they are kicky or deliberately not sleeping they go back. If they are screaming in a crowd, I comfort... yet I see some drag kids in irritation who are clearly scared. When my children are sullen I ask them, sometimes there’s a real reason such as a headache or fear. Yet I often see at workshops for children children being forced and sneered at who are reluctant.

I am sometimes crabby, sometimes not hungry, sometimes scared as an adult. I think it’s about when children aren’t allowed these emotions it crosses the line. Often rules and routines go before feelings, people don’t check the problem or are even annoyed in isolation.

It’s not everyone, but on a daily basis I see adults treating children unkindly, or even bullying. Occasionally assault (the legal smacking kind or dragging kids roughly that’s not legal for adults)

People often confuse this with spoiling children, it’s not what it’s about. My children have rules, I go to the loo alone, get second hand clothes mainly, I check their behaviour as needed, I don’t have video games here, they do work they need to do, help with chores and so on.

What I don’t relate to is the reaction some people have to distress or fear in children. That’s when it’s dehumanising. If my child has real terror at night I don’t close the door and sit it out, I’ll cuddle them in bed. When they calm down if still they stay there, if they are kicky or deliberately not sleeping they go back. If they are screaming in a crowd, I comfort... yet I see some drag kids in irritation who are clearly scared. When my children are sullen I ask them, sometimes there’s a real reason such as a headache or fear. Yet I often see at workshops for children children being forced and sneered at who are reluctant.

I am sometimes crabby, sometimes not hungry, sometimes scared as an adult. I think it’s about when children aren’t allowed these emotions it crosses the line. Often rules and routines go before feelings, people don’t check the problem or are even annoyed in isolation.

It’s not everyone, but on a daily basis I see adults treating children unkindly, or even bullying. Occasionally assault (the legal smacking kind or dragging kids roughly that’s not legal for adults)

People often confuse this with spoiling children, it’s not what it’s about. My children have rules, I go to the loo alone, get second hand clothes mainly, I check their behaviour as needed, I don’t have video games here, they do work they need to do, help with chores and so on.

What I don’t relate to is the reaction some people have to distress or fear in children. That’s when it’s dehumanising. If my child has real terror at night I don’t close the door and sit it out, I’ll cuddle them in bed. When they calm down if still they stay there, if they are kicky or deliberately not sleeping they go back. If they are screaming in a crowd, I comfort... yet I see some drag kids in irritation who are clearly scared. When my children are sullen I ask them, sometimes there’s a real reason such as a headache or fear. Yet I often see at workshops for children children being forced and sneered at who are reluctant.

I am sometimes crabby, sometimes not hungry, sometimes scared as an adult. I think it’s about when children aren’t allowed these emotions it crosses the line. Often rules and routines go before feelings, people don’t check the problem or are even annoyed in isolation.

It’s not everyone, but on a daily basis I see adults treating children unkindly, or even bullying. Occasionally assault (the legal smacking kind or dragging kids roughly that’s not legal for adults)

People often confuse this with spoiling children, it’s not what it’s about. My children have rules, I go to the loo alone, get second hand clothes mainly, I check their behaviour as needed, I don’t have video games here, they do work they need to do, help with chores and so on.

What I don’t relate to is the reaction some people have to distress or fear in children. That’s when it’s dehumanising. If my child has real terror at night I don’t close the door and sit it out, I’ll cuddle them in bed. When they calm down if still they stay there, if they are kicky or deliberately not sleeping they go back. If they are screaming in a crowd, I comfort... yet I see some drag kids in irritation who are clearly scared. When my children are sullen I ask them, sometimes there’s a real reason such as a headache or fear. Yet I often see at workshops for children children being forced and sneered at who are reluctant.

I am sometimes crabby, sometimes not hungry, sometimes scared as an adult. I think it’s about when children aren’t allowed these emotions it crosses the line. Often rules and routines go before feelings, people don’t check the problem or are even annoyed in isolation.

It’s not everyone, but on a daily basis I see adults treating children unkindly, or even bullying. Occasionally assault (the legal smacking kind or dragging kids roughly that’s not legal for adults)

Sorry about all those posts, it kept saying it hadn’t posted and to click retry- apologies

YANBU. My own mother recently admitted to me that she didn't see us as people when we were children - it explains a great deal about the more unhappy parts of my childhood.

This also extends, I think, to not seeing children as individuals. A lot of the time I see statements about how 'all children' like/dislike X, when it's obviously a gross generalisation. The other one I've seen on MN, typically with teenagers, is that they 'secretly want' whatever boundary you're putting in place, no matter how much they say they hate it. I find this quite disturbing. As a parent you do have to set boundaries of some description, and with most teenagers, at some point this is going to cause conflict and they're going to think you're completely unreasonable. It can be an uncomfortable situation, but both parties are entitled to their genuinely-held opinions and feelings.

I remember being a teenager and feeling embarrassed about even having to ask for permission for things because of how powerless it made me feel. I was certainly never secretly hoping to be told no! I can't imagine how invalidating it would have felt if someone had ascribed that motivation to me.

I think good parents do see their children as people, do their best to raise them lovingly, respectfully and thoughtfully (which can be done in a variety of ways) and wouldn’t dream of starting a thread with such an unpleasant judgemental tone.

They'll do it a couple of times and then understand that mum needs the loo.

This is not so in my experience. They continue to yell sometimes. Or to hammer on the door sometimes. Or “MUMMMMYYYYYY!” sometimes. But I still shut the door, though, because getting to pee on my own is one of the lines I’m not going to budge on!

I think parents needs matter too.

Smacking is a perfect example and Sorry to detail but this:
I’m always amazed at the number of people on here who scream LTB if a man chucks a cake in his wife’s vicinity but are fine with someone lamping their kid for misbehaving.

@AnneLovesGilbert I have literally never seen a single post on here where anyone has ever condoned smacking children. It’s pretty much universally disagreed with.

Not sure what happened at the beginning of my post there 🙄

Peeing alone is a separate issue, you’d do the same to another adult- shut them out and ask them to wait.

It’s subhuman if you treat them differently to adult humans by totally ignoring their feelings, distress or physical needs. Not teaching them, but just ignoring their emotional well being. For example letting them go through life chugging events without bothering to discuss it, such as a break up. Shouting at them when scared. Ignoring their needs, eg refusing water in hot weather as it’s not part of the bottle routine. Shutting them in a dark room alone if genuinely scared and using bullying tactics such as shouting to keep them there. Forcing them into activities where they are humiliated (eg that kid who is uncoordinated and cries in the free sports summer club so mum can rest). Just the stuff you wouldn’t dream of doing if you were reasonable and dealing with an adult

I've seen smacking defended on here. Or "it's NOT smacking, it's just a quick tap on the nappy". Minority view but it does turn up.

YANBU about some things, but sleep training I think is a tricky one because the flip side of that coin is parenting with sleep deprivation (and no matter what anyone claims, I do not believe that you can parent as well on zero sleep as you can fully rested) and the risks that brings. I find it a bit uncomfortable that people will complain about how tired they are because their child isn't sleeping through a year or two years later, and then merrily jump into a car and drive with their child in the car. To me, sleep training is the lesser of the evils in certain circumstances and in some ways I think it's more cruel to limp on for months with both of you knackered, you short-tempered (anyone who is surviving on three or four hours of broken sleep a night has to have a shorter fuse than usual), and potentially putting your child's life at risk by driving or doing other high-risk things with them while not in a fit state. But there are other things where the stakes aren't quite as high that I think it pays to be gentler about.

Of course children are people but they aren't adults. They need to be taught.
Paying too much attention to DD when she's tantruming just ensures it drags on for an hour. It's much better to let her get it out of her system and talk and gives cuddles after when she's calm.

No matter how smug people are, there is no correct parenting method. Only what’s correct for you and your family. I agree with @Gatoadigrado, the vast majority of parents adore their children and raise them the best way they can.

I adore my DC.... think the sun rises and sets with them but I’m definitely more ‘tiger’ than ‘gentle or attachment ‘. They are happy, loving, confident, intelligent, delightful children. Go figure..

There is only one universal truth... no matter what way you raise your children, you were wrong and they will do the opposite with their own children.

It’s not all or nothing. My parents were very anti any emotion so I found myself drawn initially to attachment parenting. But I realised that a sensible approach worked better for me. Yes I will empathise and comfort and explain to a degree. But it gets to a point where you’re repeating yourself and eg if you’re driving (this happens a fair bit, she drops something or suddenly decides I want X) and you just can’t help then yes I turn the music up and block out the awful whinging.

She was an awful sleeper-I had visions of cuddling a baby to sleep. Surely that would do it? She didn’t want cuddles or holding tho. She was a rabid twirling octopus. I never got to the bottom of the half hourly wake ups but thy left me with PND and a feeling that attachment parenting was invented by a man.

I don't think many people don't see their children as people, it's just about how pragmatic you are about the fact that no matter how strongly they feel about something, they don't know what's best in some scenarios and they need to learn. Children who never have a bedtime enforced would probably be very happy to stay up til they drop like an adult person might choose to, but the truth is their brains and bodies can't handle it. They don't have the logic skills to link being chronically overtired with not going to bed, so sadly they need someone to show them what's best, and they might feel sad about it until they are old enough to understand the science behind why.

Personally I think people often use "they are people with feelings too" as a cushion for being overly soft with children, conveniently forgetting that whilst they are people, they are people that don't have the in built knowledge of right and wrong, safe and unsafe, sensible and unwise that adults have spent years building up. If we don't teach them those things now, when will they learn them? They are people, but their minds are not formed.

There is a massive difference between different baby/toddler cries. With my babies, they cried if they were overtired and quite frankly needed me to sod off so they could sleep. Cuddling them tended to re-set them and the whole process would take longer. Tired grizzling is massively different to crying because babies are distressed or in pain. Of course they need comfort and attention then.

Other than when in pain, my toddler cries generally because she’s tired and having a tantrum because I’m not adhering to an unreasonable request. I try to get her to tell me why she’s annoyed and talk it through later but I’m not pandering to her just because she has a wobbly. That doesn’t mean I don’t see her as a human. I wouldn’t pander to an adult being ridiculous either.

I agree with OP to an extent, and I think there is a lot of pressure on parents and babies/children alike. I personally dislike controlled crying, it breaks my heart listening to it, but that IMHO. I respect the fact it works for many people.
However, i do think YABU to find taking a dummy from a 6 year old harsh. It’s a case of being cruel to be kind and avoid future dental issues.

I can still vividly remember staying with my aunt when I was younger - maybe about 9-13ish and being told exactly when and what I could eat/drink/do. Not in an abusive/neglectful way or anything, just a definite air of 'I'm better than you because I happen to be an adult'

For example, I'd ask to go get a drink, and be told to wait and I'd get one when she was ready. That was completely alien to me, at home if I wanted a drink I'd go help myself, I'd have a say in what we were eating (within reason) and was always treated as an equal. The way I was made to feel at my aunts stays with me to this day