AIBU to think a lot of people don't really think of children as people?

[weaningwoes]

So I am a softie and I know it. But so many threads on here have people (who are probably fine people and lovely parents in many ways) advocating such extreme 'briskness' with very young children who are struggling with their feelings that it borders on harshness to me.

Problems with sleeping, giving up bottles/dummies, 'tantrums' (or 'being overwhelmed by emotions' depending on how you feel about that word!), so often the solution seems to be "make them safe and then ignore". There's this fanatical devotion to the idea that "three nights of hell and then that was that" is a good enough outcome to justify what would amount to neglect if it was done to any other group of dependent, vulnerable person, say frail elderly or someone with developmental issues in a care home, and bloody cruel and cold at least if directed to, say, a partner who was crying for some reason.

It feels like a lot of people think their compassion for their children should just stop at 1 minute past bedtime, or the second their feelings or behaviour ceases to be convenient.

I know I sound a judgy bitch, and lots of people will be laughing at me for being so wet. But surely children are real people, even from babies, and there's no reason to imagine they feel what they feel any less truly than we adults do - just that they have far fewer tools to manage and rationalise those feelings!

I don't remember being a toddler but I do remember being a teenager and a small child - how my feelings would take me over and how utterly devastating it was to feel so much and be dismissed, overridden and ignored, even ridiculed for those feelings by adults I loved. Sure, they were right in the scheme of things that I needn't be as upset/passionate about x y z thing, but my feelings were nonetheless genuine. And they hurt!

Surely one doesn't have to agree with someone's assessment of a situation to sympathise with the strength of their emotions about it, especially when it's somebody dependent and helpless, who you love?

Prepared to be told IABVVVU.

I did sleep deprivation. I could live with that easier than I could worrying about how she must feel crying in the dark all alone. She started sending me out of the room and sleeping through of her own accord at about 2. Everyone told me she would "never" sleep through or sleep by herself if I didn't leave her to cry. They were bloody lying. I hugged her to sleep, whenever she needed me to, until she didn't need me to anymore. And yes sometimes cried because I was so tired. But rather me than her frankly.

Good for you, have a gold star for making your choice and sticking to it.

But it doesn't mean that people who made a different choice are wrong, love their children any less, or are heartless.

We all do what we believe to be best for our child and for ourselves at that time and your thread is judgemental of parents who made different choices no matter how wide-eyed you are when making denials that it is.

mummy martyrdom

Misogynist bollocks.

But people do push buttons and people do manipulate - and as you keep pointing out, children are people.

Absolutely, and children are master manipulators. They are evolutionary designed to do so as survival depended on it. Like the way you can hear your own children's cries in your very soul as opposed to just in your ears, and this is why if you are feeling already overwhelmed, the crying can almost break you.

Children are people but so are parents and sometimes it's hard to completely let go of self interest for all aspects, especially if you're struggling. I don't subscribe to smacking. I don't settle any of my disagreements with violence and don't intend to start with someone a 5th of my size. But at the same time, I don't judge parents who do issue the odd smack as a last resort. It's what they felt was necessary at the time. In my experience, parents who don't love their children more than anything and only want what is best for them are thankfully in the minority. Most of us are just trying to navigate our way through the most difficult and responsibility laden thing we will ever do and are just trying our best not to f*CK it up too much. I make my own risk assessments with my own kids and do what is best for them. I don't think another parent doing similar for their kids are seeing them as any less human than I mine just because they don't subscribe to the same view. I actually think it's easier to lose track of the fact that we as parents are only human and not picture perfect beings who make the right decisions every time.

To be fair though if an adult was totally hysterical and crying I'd might leave them alone to calm down as well if I felt there was nothing I could do.

I know I sound a judgy bitch, and lots of people will be laughing at me for being so wet

Yup.

But as adults we have to do things we wouldn't choose to do and may even actively dislike. Surely it is our role as parents to teach and support kids with managing those difficult feelings. You can't always avoid those feelings and in some instances you are doing an actual disservice by never letting kids be exposed to them. You can do it with compassion and understanding though.

I was relatively strict when my kids were young but I look bad and think I should have done more to build greater resilience. When they aren't used to overcoming difficulties, when they do, it is a bigger issue than it would be to kids used to overcoming obstacles. I think this is a reason that anxiety is such an issue with modern day kids. They have been wrapped in cotton wool too much. No parent wants their child to be upset, but to parent effectively you can't avoid it.

Most of us are just trying to navigate our way through the most difficult and responsibility laden thing we will ever do and are just trying our best not to fCK it up too much. I make my own risk assessments with my own kids and do what is best for them. I don't think another parent doing similar for their kids are seeing them as any less human than I mine just because they don't subscribe to the same view*

And seeing as every acceptable method of parenting usually produces the same end result of a more or less functioning adult, the evidence would point to there being no single 'right' way to raise a child.

I’m a big believer in instinctual parenting, if it doesn’t feel right then it’s probably not.

The amount of times I’ve read of women locking themselves in the bathroom or actually asking their partner to physically restrain them from going to their crying baby. If you get to that stage, you’re doing something so wrong.

I've found that my children always behaved and accepted me telling them no when I took the time to hear them out. In other words, even if I knew my answer was no, it was very important to allow them to make their case. In return I would tell them no and explain my position. I know a lot of parents (including my children's father) feel that having absolute authority and not having to justify your decisions to children is being a strong parent, but I disagree. Kids have feelings and deserve the basic respect you would give any person. Consequently, I had far fewer issues with behavior or meltdowns (when they were little) than he did.

I agree, OP.

We are Victorian in our attitude to caring for children. It's like the Harlow experiments never happened.

Why Love Matters is an excellent read on why children should have their emotional needs met and not be left to cry.

I gently stopped feeding both of mine at night at around 2 years old. DS1 remained in my bed until quite recently (he's 6) and DS2 is still there (he's 3). I'm a Stone Age parent

@weaningwoes but it sounds like your decisions labelled you 'wet' rather than 'evil'

I suppose we all come to these things with our own baggage eg the mum friends I have are much more of your thinking and it is a shameful thing to admit you are sleep training. And I didn't even comment on the bits of your post I agree with, like being careful to remember how children might feel, as I immediately focused on the things that were emotional to me!

I've also read Philippa Perry's book and while I liked a lot of it, I also thought it a bit idealistic if you have more than one child. Completely agree with pp who said some of what you are teaching a child is patience and how to manage difficult feelings and cope in a world where they aren't the centre of everything.

To be fair though if an adult was totally hysterical and crying I'd might leave them alone to calm down as well if I felt there was nothing I could do

Yes.

And they would calm down much more quickly without their audience looking on.

So the same treatment for adults and children, OP. Here we have an adult screaming hysterically (for whatever reason) and a toddler having a tantrum (for whatever reason) and the most helpful response in both cases is to leave them alone somewhere safe, where you are within earshot, until they are calm again.

I think you're actually quite worried about your reactions to your child. Believe me, we have all had moments where we wish our children would vanish for a few minutes.

I find parenting my 3 year old DS very difficult. He only seems to tantrum when he doesn’t get his way. I tried to be gentle and endlessly understanding but it seemed to make him worse. I’ve now become a bit tougher and it’s helped but I do feel bad that it may be ignoring his feelings. Sometimes I feel I can’t win and by that I mean make us both happy.

Part of parenting is helping them manage their feelings as they grow. Sadly some parents give in to everything and produce spoilt brats who struggle when school is not so indulgent.

This is obviously about the dummy thread.I think a brisk approach to most things is the way forward,especially if the child is too old for something dummy,comfort blanket etc

I’m soft too. My kids all became good sleepers and well toilet trained despite this! You can hear when it’s proper fear in their cries, I just couldn’t leave them to cry at night. So far they seem to have just grown up secure and happy, not mollycoddled

I've read this somewhere and it really, really resonated with me: "some people take respect to mean being treated as a person and some people take it to mean being treated as an authority. Sometimes people who are used to being treated as an authority will say i won't respect you if you don't respect me, but what they really mean is if you won't treat me as an authority then I won't treat you like a person. And they think that is all right, and it's not. "

I don't know who said it, but it makes so much sense to me.

No one can be responsible for their childs feelings 24/7 and forever.
How do they learn to accept their feelings with no guidance or boundaries OP?
Example
They are cross they have to go to bed as they want to stay up late ( age 3)
Well its your job and responsibilty as a parent to manage that -ultimately the child has to learn to go to sleep when they are tired even if its more fun to stay up.
You can acknowledge they are cross but ultimately they are going to bed anyway < shrug>

Its interesting as I view your approach as neglectful/poor parenting and yep wet

We of course know they are people - they don't understand that we are!!wink

@weaningwoes that is an interesting thought.

If parents treat their kids as "little Emperors" (google) then it's a bit of a shock in the real world when other kids and adults don't revolve their world round them. Way to go if you want unhappy, socially unaware kids.

Like anything there is a middle ground. You are the parent and not their friend but you can empathise with their feelings.

I don't remember being a toddler

And neither will your DC whether you sleep-train her or not.

Incidentally why did you write "tantrums" in inverted commas? Do you think tantrums only happen to other people's children?

Also waking up at night crying and needing some comfort is very different to having a tantrum and arching your back when someone tries to hug you or pick you up.

Your right op and it's easy to forget when your battling all the time..

I strongly dislike the forcing threads eg punish for not eating, not potty training, forcing tooth brush in moth and pinning down horrified me.

I have encounter all those battles and got through without sheer blunt adult force.

However its good reminder op that we do need to step back sometimes and see how we present to tiny powerless dc

Agree OP. I honestly think that some people see their children as a sub-species.

That said, I did do controlled crying with one of mine, as I honestly don't think that reassuring a 15 month old every two minutes that it is time for sleep, not playtime at 2am is dismissing their feelings or being cruel.

Babies and children need protection, education and guidance and as much love as you can give them and they are not lesser beings, less important or less worthy than adults!

Jemima I know sleep training isn't punishing!! That's why I said sleep training/punishing their babies/toddlers. Sleep training babies, punishing toddlers.