AIBU to think a lot of people don't really think of children as people?

[weaningwoes]

So I am a softie and I know it. But so many threads on here have people (who are probably fine people and lovely parents in many ways) advocating such extreme 'briskness' with very young children who are struggling with their feelings that it borders on harshness to me.

Problems with sleeping, giving up bottles/dummies, 'tantrums' (or 'being overwhelmed by emotions' depending on how you feel about that word!), so often the solution seems to be "make them safe and then ignore". There's this fanatical devotion to the idea that "three nights of hell and then that was that" is a good enough outcome to justify what would amount to neglect if it was done to any other group of dependent, vulnerable person, say frail elderly or someone with developmental issues in a care home, and bloody cruel and cold at least if directed to, say, a partner who was crying for some reason.

It feels like a lot of people think their compassion for their children should just stop at 1 minute past bedtime, or the second their feelings or behaviour ceases to be convenient.

I know I sound a judgy bitch, and lots of people will be laughing at me for being so wet. But surely children are real people, even from babies, and there's no reason to imagine they feel what they feel any less truly than we adults do - just that they have far fewer tools to manage and rationalise those feelings!

I don't remember being a toddler but I do remember being a teenager and a small child - how my feelings would take me over and how utterly devastating it was to feel so much and be dismissed, overridden and ignored, even ridiculed for those feelings by adults I loved. Sure, they were right in the scheme of things that I needn't be as upset/passionate about x y z thing, but my feelings were nonetheless genuine. And they hurt!

Surely one doesn't have to agree with someone's assessment of a situation to sympathise with the strength of their emotions about it, especially when it's somebody dependent and helpless, who you love?

Prepared to be told IABVVVU.

@EssentialHummus

Hmm. Well if literally NOTHING worked (and I'm talking over time here, not just one morning when if in a rush I might just let it go for once in a way) then I'm really not sure. But there are SO many things to try! The internet (and dentists actually) bristle with suggestions on how to persuade kids to brush, and acknowledge it can be a long road. Some kids love an electric toothbrush (mine would freak all the way out as she isn't keen on noise). Some kids like to play games of catching monsters behind the teeth. Sometimes changing up the adult or coming back to it later. Bit of bribery or just sheer bloody-minded repetition on a tough day ("we can leave the bathroom when you've brushed, I'm getting so bored in here aren't you? Hurry up and let me brush then we can go and play Duplo"). It would be a long time coming before I felt I'd exhausted every possible avenue and force was my only option.

From what you say, some of your friends are very strict because they have defiant toddlers; others are too soft, so they have defiant toddlers. It's almost like being defiant is part of the process of being a toddler!

I agree. Currently reading "why love matters" and it supports all you are saying op. Give it a read.

weaning I guess for me it's about the particular toddler. DD (through nothing I've done) is compliant and people-pleasing. You can ask her at 23 months to put down her cookie and go tidy her toys and she'll do it. Some of her friends aren't that way inclined, and I think the litmus test for these overarching "parenting styles" is actually children at the more extreme end.

Thanks @Chipsahoy, I keep hearing about that one!

He is left alone to calm down with reassurances from a distance, sometimes different room if my being in the same room is agitating him, that I am still here. Minimal speech. He is non verbal and understands little speech and understands none when in distress.
As he has got older there has been lots of work done on him self regulating his emotions and behaviour by teaching him to take himself off by himself and self regulate by sensory means. The alternative would be a teenager who was physically unmanageable.

(And fwiw that personality type has clear downsides too, before anyone thinks I'm gloating.)

@EssentialHummus

See I disagree. We don't make policy on the basis of the extreme ends of ranges, but on what is useful for the majority. adapatations can be made for outliers. But in general, if a method is effective in most cases and less of a battle surely that is good enough to at least consider trying it out (as part of the battery of things one tries to find the right fit for one's own unique child/family)?

@Underhisi

forgive me for presuming but it sounds from what you say that your son has additional needs? My nephew is non-verbal and autistic (4) and what works for my DD would never work for him, he needs a completely different approach. That does not in any way conflict with the idea of recognising and 'believing in' his feelings, it just means acknowledging he experiences them differently and needs different types of acknowledgement and support.

Forgive me if I have grasped the total wrong end of the stick!

It comes down to the nature versus nurture debate but I think my son is a well adjusted young man in spite of his parents, not because of them! Ditto his schooling. People are the way they are. You obviously learn that some behaviour is unacceptable and unpleasant but ultimately you can't teach someone not to be lazy, they are or they aren't, though you can of course have battle over battle over Saturday jobs or tidying bedrooms. They might follow your example if you are hard-working, they might not. Otherwise everyone would be a carbon copy of their siblings, and they are not.

For me the it is when your adult children let you know which of your bright ideas they won’t be replicating

My mum wouldn't let me read at the table - we frequently sit down for Saturday lunch and read bits of the paper, so that is something I didn't replicate.

Yes he does.
The problem comes when you are around other people and their reaction to what you do.
For example pulling or pushing him out of somewhere because you know if you stay there, there are going to be serious problems and he has got beyond the point of moving himself.
Or sitting him strapped in his sn buggy facing a wall ( for minimal stimulation) whilst you minimally talk to him and whilst he shouts and hits himself because you are trying to prevent greater distress and dangerous behaviour.
I think people need to think a bit more before they judge.

We don't make policy on the basis of the extreme ends of ranges, but on what is useful for the majority. adapatations can be made for outliers. But in general, if a method is effective in most cases and less of a battle surely that is good enough to at least consider trying it out (as part of the battery of things one tries to find the right fit for one's own unique child/family)?

Yes. Where we disagree, I think, is that I see a lot of very poor behaviour from people who are self-professed attachment parents, and that's led me to be very pessimistic about that as an approach. Which may be unfair - there may be plenty of those parents who aren't shouting about their "parenting style" and simply raising their kids in the way they see fit.

In my own life I value structure and discipline (not discipline in the sense of punishment, but in the sense of having established codes of behaviour), and I want to pass the same on to my children.

With the teeth I wouldn’t have forced either because I can’t see how it would work. She would’ve become more crazed. However when she used to run off I would physically return her to the bathroom until she realised I wasn’t going away

I often found that self-styled parenting gurus in the AP sphere where I used to linger tended to have naturally compliant children. I remember one lady asking about her DC who was refusing to go in a car seat and managed to undo the belt. There were no answers for this lady save “tell her a story about a girl who wouldn’t get in her car seat”. I don’t think the guru could envisage a child being defiant because hers wasn’t. And that is why people think Gentle Parenting is wet and ineffective. It only works in theory, with kids who already are gentle.

You do have to physically restrain and manhandle kids sometimes.

I totally agree with you OP. I think there are a lot of people who see their children as something needing to be constantly controlled and any step over the line needs to be immediately stamped out. I’m mainly thinking of people who say something stupid like ‘if you do that again I’ll bin your toy’ then go through with it because backing down is absolutely not an option. Or people who take presents away as punishments because ‘I bought it so it belongs to me’. Or people who smack their children. It just seems like endless power play.

I also think it's worth reading Bowlby's original theory of attachment - to do with monkeys - to see how far the term has been changed. To me it's in the same category as the fetishisation of wooden toys.

But as I say I'm not making her think she is 'the centre of the universe' or giving way to her on everything simply by acknowledging and empathising with her feelings. She doesn't get her own way all the time (thus the tantrums!). But when she struggles with that I don't compund her upset by admonishing her for even being upset, or try to pretend that she 'isn't really' even when I know full well in the equivalent adult situation I too would be upset - I've just learned tools to manage the upset!

I think a big part of why you can't understand why people might take a different approach is that you are assuming everyone would behave a certain way towards adults, and that isn't the case.

If you were say comforting a friend after a bad breakup, would you say "oh no that's awful, he's treated you so badly and you're alone now, you're probably going to be alone for a long time, possibly forever, and money will be harder. It's hard losing someone isn't it"? This would be validating and empathising with their feelings in the way you suggest.

Or would you say "you can do so much better than him, there's plenty more fish in the sea, you're going to have so much fun without him"?

When an adult is upset, some people will assume they will benefit most from being allowed to wallow in their upset and really talk about how low they feel, whereas others will opt for trying to perk them up, remind them of the bigger picture and make them feel like it's not the end of the world.

If my child was upset because someone else was playing with the toy she wanted, I wouldn't tell her off for feeling that way but at the same time I wouldn't make a big deal about how sad she must be and how hard it is, and probably would be saying things like "there's plenty of other toys here, look how great they are", "he won't be long and then you can have a go" etc. I wouldn't be doing this to dismiss her feelings, but to offer the perspective that it isn't the end of the world rather than agreeing with her that it is.

This is the same thing I would do for an adult who was upset, and there's rarely malice behind it when people try to cheer their friends up rather than allow them to go on and on about what's bothering them.

@Underhisi

I absolutely agree that judging someone based on a snapshot of their life is shit. My BIL and Dsis obviously have to face this too, and while they're both pretty iron-plated re others' opinions and always have been I can imagine it's hard - I think my DSis finds it worse when people judge her child rather than her parenting, when they have no idea of their situation.

I do think though when people express a judgement about parenting 'in general', it's reasonable to make judgements about that (as people are doing to me, fair enough, I made a statement). I don't think that if a judgement or opinion wouldn't apply to EVERYONE, it is unreasonable to hold it or think it about ANYONE.

Otherwise we're just in the amoral comfort zone of 'your baby your rules' with no critical thinking or safeguarding imo.

Most people try gentler methods first. I don’t think there are many parents that go straight to pinning down a child to brush their teeth. I think the emotional challenges grow as the children grow. My child is far more complex at 3 than she was at 2. As an example, she has an imaginary friend. I go with it most of the time but there comes a point when I refuse, especially around wasting food. She threw a massive wobbly because I wouldn’t open an ice cream for her friend when she was having one. There was no about of reasoning, comforting etc that was going to work so I just let her crack on with screaming and she flounced to her room to calm herself down.

@AE18:

you're probably going to be alone for a long time, possibly forever

I will properly look at your post but why the hell would I say something so horrible to a friend???

I might ask her if she was worried about being alone, but I wouldn't tell her she 'probably would be' - how the fuck could I possibly know that???

You don't have to INHABIT someone's feelings with them to empathise with them!

I don't have to tell my daughter she SHOULD cry buckets over a toy to empathise with the fact she feel she needs to; just tell her I understand what she is feeling and why.

This is the same thing I would do for an adult who was upset, and there's rarely malice behind it when people try to cheer their friends up rather than allow them to go on and on about what's bothering them

And there are people, and times, that works for - everyone's different. But certainly people VERY rarely complain that they were listened to too much, empathised with too much, allowed to 'wallow' (not a nice word to apply to someone who is struggling) too much. More often people speak about feeling unheard, silenced, dismissed.

Like birth trauma. So many women get PND because people try to 'jolly them along' after birth trauma, saying that it 'doesn't matter' because they and the baby are both well etc. So many women are made to feel ashamed of their ongoing feelings of trauma and sadness, repress, and then break down. There's a real move in Health Services now to avoid this by prioritising postnatal counselling and having 'debriefs' of difficult births; rather than simply slapping women on the back and telling them to buck up, it's not so bad, eat your greens. I'm assuming they have an evidence base to support this (expensive) approach.

I guess the expression that jumps out at me from your post is 'make them feel like it's not the end of the world'.

I don't think I can 'make' my daughter feel anything really. I can't control her emotions or manage them for her; I can only help her to do so. And I can't do that by ignoring or dismissing the feelings that are there.

*I might ask her if she was worried about being alone, but I wouldn't tell her she 'probably would be' - how the fuck could I possibly know that???

You don't have to INHABIT someone's feelings with them to empathise with them!

I don't have to tell my daughter she SHOULD cry buckets over a toy to empathise with the fact she feel she needs to; just tell her I understand what she is feeling and why.*

See, I wouldn't ask her if she was worried about being alone, because I wouldn't want to project those negative feelings onto her. And, if she did say she was worried about that, my knee jerk reaction would probably be to say "of course you won't be", which is essentially the equivalent of telling a child who is upset about a toy that they are being silly.

My point is we do dismiss adults feelings when they talk to us, to try and convince them of something more optimistic. This is usually the motivation behind a parent quickly moving on from a child's emotion rather than always taking a long time to explore and discuss those emotions. It's human nature for a lot of people to distract from and make light of a situation, rather than agree that it's a worthwhile thing to be really upset about. It doesn't come from a position of "not viewing children as people".

I think it's fair to say that while you can't make your child see it's not the end of the world you can add to the drama of the situation with your behaviour. I think this can happen a lot with teenagers whose parents get involved in their drama and ham it up.

@AE18
My point is we do dismiss adults feelings when they talk to us, to try and convince them of something more optimistic. This is usually the motivation behind a parent quickly moving on from a child's emotion rather than always taking a long time to explore and discuss those emotions. It's human nature for a lot of people to distract from and make light of a situation, rather than agree that it's a worthwhile thing to be really upset about. It doesn't come from a position of "not viewing children as people".

Ah. I actually see what you're saying now and that does make sense. It is indeed a thing that people do. I just don't think it's very effective, with adults or children. And at least adults have the option of seeking the support they need elsewhere.

@SnuggyBuggy

Agreed!