AIBU to think a lot of people don't really think of children as people?

[weaningwoes]

So I am a softie and I know it. But so many threads on here have people (who are probably fine people and lovely parents in many ways) advocating such extreme 'briskness' with very young children who are struggling with their feelings that it borders on harshness to me.

Problems with sleeping, giving up bottles/dummies, 'tantrums' (or 'being overwhelmed by emotions' depending on how you feel about that word!), so often the solution seems to be "make them safe and then ignore". There's this fanatical devotion to the idea that "three nights of hell and then that was that" is a good enough outcome to justify what would amount to neglect if it was done to any other group of dependent, vulnerable person, say frail elderly or someone with developmental issues in a care home, and bloody cruel and cold at least if directed to, say, a partner who was crying for some reason.

It feels like a lot of people think their compassion for their children should just stop at 1 minute past bedtime, or the second their feelings or behaviour ceases to be convenient.

I know I sound a judgy bitch, and lots of people will be laughing at me for being so wet. But surely children are real people, even from babies, and there's no reason to imagine they feel what they feel any less truly than we adults do - just that they have far fewer tools to manage and rationalise those feelings!

I don't remember being a toddler but I do remember being a teenager and a small child - how my feelings would take me over and how utterly devastating it was to feel so much and be dismissed, overridden and ignored, even ridiculed for those feelings by adults I loved. Sure, they were right in the scheme of things that I needn't be as upset/passionate about x y z thing, but my feelings were nonetheless genuine. And they hurt!

Surely one doesn't have to agree with someone's assessment of a situation to sympathise with the strength of their emotions about it, especially when it's somebody dependent and helpless, who you love?

Prepared to be told IABVVVU.

You can recognise and empathise with someone's feelings without adding to drama.

It is perfectly possible to understand that a 2 year old doesn't want to be forced into a car seat and strapped in but also know that you can't drive them anywhere in the car unless you do. You can say through the screaming and shouting and rigid body protesting that you know they don't like it but that is the way it is and not be mean about the way you strap them in.

In the same way it is perfectly possible to empathise with your teenager that it sucks to have to be home by midnight but that was the timeline you gave them and if they don't like that, then they can chose not to go. You can completely understand how unfair they think that is whilst also holding your own position. In the same way you might agree to compromise during school holidays and say that 12.30pm will be ok.

You can also empathise with a girlfriend whose partner has cheated on her and let her share her feelings and misery without it being dwelling unhealthily on it - the two are not mutually exclusive. No one has to be 'jollied along' or forced to see positivity where there isn't any, but you can be supportive and also encouraging about the future.

No one's feelings need to be repressed, ignored or held back but equally no fuel needs to be added to the fire either.

@MargoLoveButter - wouldn't disagree with a single thing you say and this is how I (try to!) roll!

No wonder the older generation question the resiliance of today's kids. I do need ro control dd to a certain extent...not because i get a kick out if it but because i'd rather she grew up with manners, realising that she can't have it all, that other people matter and that she needs to try to look after herself, her room and her teeth etc...i want her to be employable and j do this without force but if she is being difficult she gets told off...just as i get told off if i'm being difficult by colleagues, friends etc..

I agree. I was told I was doing something wrong for "still" feeding my DS to sleep when he was 4 months old. Also told to let him cry it out on numerous occasions. Would an adult like to just be ignored because they are scared/upset/whatever? No. Or if they do, they can obviously say, unlike a young child.

@TeaMe Blimey, 4 months old? What are people like?

I started getting 'still?' around six months, then "STILL???" around a year, then after 18 months the criticism simply faaaaded away as people clearly decided I was a massive hippy and beyond redeeming I could live with that!

@weaningwoes yeah I just don't mention that I still do it now!

YANBU on the whole. I've seen examples multiple times when people tell me their baby is "grizzling" or "whingeing" when the child is clearly incredibly upset. It is a parent's choice, so you have to just leave them to it and say nothing. Even the idea of leaving a child crying in their bed is distressing, I try never to discuss it in real life so that I won't give people my opinion. I do notice that the genuinely whingey kids tend to be the ones whose parents ignore them so they fuss for attention and tantrum, it looks counter-productive to me when a problem can be dealt with or comfort given much more quickly, but up to them. Being permissive with no rules is just as bad though, children need to learn to live in a world with many competing demands and to me that includes not throwing food, going to bed on time, handing over a thing you aren't allowed to play with, learning not to pull wires etc.

It is indeed a thing that people do. I just don't think it's very effective, with adults or children. And at least adults have the option of seeking the support they need elsewhere.

I agree it's often helpful to be listened to, but as much as you will always find people saying so, you will also find people who are grateful to their friends for taking their mind off things and giving them a good laugh in times of crisis. So I think it's impossible to say there's absolutely no merit in taking that approach instead, because even adults benefit from it at times, no matter how important our emotions feel at the time.

Obviously I'm not talking about the bigger things like the PND you mentioned, but I think being able to differentiate between things that are worth a big fuss with children and things that aren't is a big part of the all important "balance". If every single time they feel one of those big, childish emotions it's treated as equally reasonable and worthy of the fuss, then how are they ever going to learn to regulate how much little things can get to them? Or, for example, that time is a natural solution to their immediate problems, so there is no point being absolutely devastated that they can't play with a toy right now when they can play with it in five minutes? Children aren't born with this innate understanding of how time works, but if they don't have us as parents gently pointing it out to them, when would the penny drop? Would it ever?

I know from your previous posts that you would argue that she would eventually figure it out for herself and there's no reason to push her towards it, but I would argue that there's no point waiting years for her to realise that waiting a few minutes is not that bad, and getting really upset about it in the meantime, when I could use my considerable amount more wisdom as an adult to gently guide her towards that realisation by pointing it out to her when she gets upset.

I believe she will read emotions from me so if I am behaving as though something is a big deal and worth being upset about (because she is), she will continue to believe that is the right response for the situation. She will only question if it's actually that big of a deal if the people she's talking to don't seem to think it is, and that is an important life lesson, or every time something doesn't go entirely to plan we would all fall apart.

It's just a different way of viewing how much our response to things guide their responses to things.

I agree with balance and that goes for adults as well as kids. Making a drama out of minor things is not something we would encourage in adults either. Most would empathise by saying something like that sounds shit, but we wouldn't be okay with an adult who had full meltdowns over minor things.
And although expressing feelings matters, so does controlling your emotions. You can't have angry outbursts at people every time you feel annoyed or irritated, or burst into tears every time you feel upset. A proportionate response is important.
So yes if a child has a minor fall over I do not feed it by making a big deal about it. But I don't ignore it either. A quick - upsa daisy and helping them up, and giving the hurt area a kiss is all that is needed. Some parents do feed drama. And some adults seem to revel in drama.

@weaningwoes yes, but one could argue SOS and other AP authors are also in it to sell books, albeit to a different group of parents.

Ultimately, there is no evidence that supports the idea that sleep training is harmful or damaging, whoever has appraised it. It may not sit right with you, which is absolutely fine - you don’t have to sleep train your child.

I totally agree with you, it makes me really sad the way our society sees fit to treat such little people. I think as they're learning how to do everything they should be treated with much more kindness, patience and compassion than we give adults but he opposite seems to be true a lot of times

I think it depends where you live and who you mix with. I see parents treating kids with much more patience, kindness and compassion than they treat other adults, especially vulnerable adults.

I do agree with most of your post jenny

But would say to this part
And although expressing feelings matters, so does controlling your emotions

Children aren’t born knowing how to control emotions so they have to learn. A child could get to age 2, only ever knowing a couple of emotions - maybe fear and happiness - then all of a sudden they get anger and frustration and maybe embarrassment etc etc and without ever experiencing these before, how do they control them?

I started getting 'still?' around six months, then "STILL???" around a year, then after 18 months the criticism simply faaaaded away as people clearly decided I was a massive hippy and beyond redeeming grin I could live with that!

Haha - I still feed my 21 month old to sleep sometimes because it’s easy! His dad can also get him to sleep just as easily so I don’t worry. And my DM keeps trying to tell me he shouldn’t be sleeping in my bed anymore... meh.

YANBU.

@ethelfleda Yes I agree that children do not know how to control their emotions and have to be taught it. It is why we accept toddlers will have tantrums but would not accept a tantrum from a NT 20 year old.

Couldn't agree more OP. MN is terrible for it. Everything negative needs to be seized upon as a "life lesson" and the slightest relaxation of rules or expectations means your child will be a brat/have behavioural issues/be helpless/be a burden on their future spouse/be useless in general. I feel like some people on here genuinely believe and are terrible fried that one off day or incident of difficult behaviour will ruin years of child raising.

Of course, children need help when learning to cope with emotion. Nevertheless, you can’t necessarily teach emotional regulation. The amygdala and prefrontal cortex is immaturely developed in young children, meaning that they will get better at understanding and controlling emotion as these brain regions mature. Thus, it’s in the nature of young children to be emotionally unstable.

I completely agree OP.

@lifeinthedeep there is a lot of junk science quoted round this. It is a bit more chicken and egg. The relevant parts in children's brains develop the more they practise emotional regulation.

@CarolDanvers of course one incident does not fuck things up. But I do think it depends on the personality of your child. Some children you can have rules, be pretty flexible and everything will be fine. Other kids you have rules, if you are flexible once you spend the next 3 months having that rule challenged every single bloody time. So some parents stick to rules more strictly for good reasons.

@jennymanara

It would be strange for junk science to be taught in a Neuroscience lecture...

...and repeated in a child development lecture too

@lifeinthedeep Maybe read some of the research. There is nothing that says you can't teach emotional regulation. It is a skill that is learned. That is what the research shows that talks about "amygdala and prefrontal cortex is immaturely developed in young children." Because it only develops in normal environmental conditions. It does not happen automatically as children mature into adults.

Of course a 5 year old can not be taught by 5 to regulate their emotion as well as a 40 year old. But children do have to be taught it. And if you don't teach it as a parent, their teachers will be teaching it.