...to think she shouldn't be leaving her kids?

[Biiscuits]

I have a friend, who has a boy and a girl aged 9 and 12. The girl has learning difficulties.

She's a single mum, no dad, and works full time- proper full time- out the house 8-6. She's leaving the kids home alone these holidays every day.

I think they're far too young and not remotely sensible enough.

AIBU?

PeggySue-It is hardly helpful to accuse other people of lacking empathy, and suggest only that nobody should criticise a mother for leaving children in an unsafe situation. Why is your humanity reserved for the adult here?

Both of the children's parents (we don't know that they don't have a father in the background-if so he bears his share of responsibility) and society have a duty to make sure that the children are safe as a bare minimum.

Many year ago I worked in a restaurant. One of the staff (single mum) was leaving a boy and girl of the same ages while she did the evening shift - she often got back at midnight.

One of her neighbours reported her to SS. They told her to find child care - their father and his new wife refused to help. This meant she couldn’t do her share of the evening shifts so she lost her job.

Let kids be kids - funnily enough my small kids enjoy making toast as much if not more than playing with their ‘toys’.

There is nothing stopping them from spending the day watching movies, playing games, eating lunch and snacks, playing with their toys, building their bond as siblings, having a nap, doing make and do, popping into the neighbours kids......sounds shit and neglectful and too much of a burden for (modern) kids doesn’t it.

At nine or ten in the holidays I used to go out as soon as I got up and come back for tea, every day unless it rained. We’d be in and out of neighbouring houses, up the common, going to the local shop.

This was the late eighties. What has happened in the latest generation?

It's very difficult. I actually think the worst part is that the children must be incredibly bored, staying in all day by themselves.

I'm a sahm... mainly because I have no idea how I'd cope in the school holidays. I have no family to help in holidays and holiday clubs would be so expensive, it would barely be worth working. Luckily, I'm not a single parent.

I feel sorry for women in that position.

Years ago, income support was available for single parents until their youngest child was 12. That was kind of indicative that the government thought parents (mainly mother's) should be able to be at home during the primary school years. Then it was lowered to age 5...I'm not sure if it's been lowered further?

It's a disgusting state of affairs and is an attempt imo to make motherhood virtually irrelevant.

But maybe I'm overthinking

Oh and it beggars belief that a single mother leaving her children home alone whilst she works could get into trouble for neglect, while the father who has fucked off leaving her in that situation faces no repercussions.

Luckily, I'm not a single parent

And that is the key bit of information.

If this woman can't work, then there is no one else to pay her bills. How far are people willing to go? Is it best that these children are removed?

I'm not actually convinced that SS would respond, given that the kids are 12 and 9. I've heard of some horrendous situations which didn't meet threshold. It would be very surprising if this did

Agree with pricedrop

Its not ideal , But all over the world , children much younger than this have to fend for themselves , so they aren't incapable of being left alone. My daughter knows a couple of single mum's who have have done this
It is sometimes harder for 2 children to be left alone together then one , if they tend to fight

Just for reference when I was a baby my mum had to go into hospital , this was many years ago , I was left with a relative but my 9 year old sister 'kept house' cooked all the meals etc for my dad and brother , I am not sure if this was during term time or not , if it was she would have still gone to school
I am sure I was left at home alone for periods of time , as my mum had part time jobs , when I was very young she took me with her

sometimes you have to do what you have to do

Lots of holiday childcare especially the affordable type is 9-3 or 10-2.
If she needs 8-6 there may be nothing available or very expensive.
Childcare for 12 years olds isn't usually available most stops at 11. My daughter is 13 and I'm only part time so leave her but I'm out 4.5 hours maximum. I wouldn't want to leave her 7-7 day in day out which would be my time out of house if I worked full time in nearby city. But there is no childcare near me for 11/12 year olds at secondary in holidays for long hours.

YippeeKayakOtherBuckets Fri 02-Aug-19 10:19:56
At nine or ten in the holidays I used to go out as soon as I got up and come back for tea, every day unless it rained. We’d be in and out of neighbouring houses, up the common, going to the local shop.

This was the late eighties. What has happened in the latest generation?

In the 1960's and the 50's for my siblings , we were encouraged to go out play , I used wander off round the common and to the river at a very young age , and quite often alone . We only came back , and tbh we were only expected to come back at meal times
For some reason we have become over protective of our own children , we were very much expected to fit into our parents lives , where as we can tend to treat our own kids as mini gods , and do tend to pander too much as we never want them to be unhappy .....of course what is happening we are raising a generation that expect too much from life

Again cheap and cheerful holiday childcare may not accept child with additional needs My dd has a physical disability and I used to have to stress she was fine and could manage with no help. Obviously ok when she returned year after and they knew her but an issue at first.

There is no law on when a child can be left alone so no laws are being broken, however, if there is a risk of leaving them alone it is an offence. So I suppose if the child is very young it would be risky.

I personally wouldn’t leave my daughter alone until she was maybe 12-13 but 9 is too young for me and not fair for the 12 year old to be responsible for his sister.

There are holiday camps near me that do 10-3, which are just over £10 a day. However, all day camps are a minimum of £25...so would be £250 a week for two children...so £1000 a month. That's a massive hit if you're a single parent and/or not earning much.

These PP's who every time an OP mentions something negative about someone they know - there's an expectation the OP could/should help. Eh?!

Most of the time they're only acquaintances, not even friends.

If I was the OP, I'd say in a private message, here's their contact details, you crack on and provide their child care for the summer pet!

Some of us work F/T and do make arrangements so our kids aren't left home alone eating ketchup sandwiches.

Help where help is due but I wouldn't want to effectively acquire parental responsibility for children just because I say hello to their parent

"She could be entitled to direct payments to cover childcare costs because of special needs."

You don't get direct payments for that reason. You might get a few hours as a short break or respite but it would only be a few hours

How is 12 not responsible ? 12 was always a big age where you became responsible
How are kids preparing to adult now?

I was babysitting at 12

My grandsons have been spending days alone at home on INSET days since they started secondary school. They are perfectly capable of fending for themselves and wouldn't be forced to live on 'ketchup sandwiches' as someone said (invented) earlier.

Childhood is a fairly modern invention.

My DH's gran went out to work after school at age 8.
My DF started working full time at age 13.
I could do all neccessary housework at age 8 and superwise my little sister.
My DC's made their way to and from school using public transport from year 1 aged 6.
There was always a neighbour we children could turn to if neccessary. That was part of reciprocal "neighbourly duties".

It's not ideal but the naivety of some posters who suggest that SS will be able to help/offer support is astounding. Unless the 12 year old has a cognitive impairment that would reduce mental capacity by several years at least then this will not interest SS (assuming dc are otherwise fed and cared for). They most certainly will not be providing babysitters or payments.
If SS felt the DC were in danger then the mother would be told to leave her job if she couldn't afford paid care.
It is an absolute travesty that working families cannot afford childcare. There are children put to bed at night whilst their parents do late night shifts in restaurants/takeaways and they stay alone until the early hours of the morning. Sadly they have no other choice.

Oh dear I think I am a failure.

I am happy to let my 13 and just 10 y/o be alone in or out of the house. I will expect them to check in every few hours and let me know where they are, especially if going in to someones house.

We have a long establish set of safety rules and have discussed, what ifs to the extent of alien sodding invasion...he is 10.

Neither is help responsible for the other, but the 13 y/o holds authority in my absence. I am solely responsible. It is my decision.

My only real reservation is that I know my 10 y/o feels unsafe without me there, this displays itself through him being more risk averse and calmer. My 13 y/o also struggles to differentiate between responsibility and authority, she always has blamed self, so I keep this in mind.

I do not however leave my 6 y/o with them, she is a nightmare and too young to self regulate sufficiently.

Childhood is a fairly modern invention.
Yes. Both my parents left school and started work at 14.

What are parents on a low income supposed to do in this situation though, if they have to work? Do they really have any choice??

Alexa even if the mother was entitled to direct payments I doubt it would cover full time child care first of all it's very difficult to get and PA,s in my LA are like Gold dust certainly the people know who get direct pay!ends for he kids ,get something like 4 or 6 hours every couple of weeks .