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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

...to think she shouldn't be leaving her kids?

182 replies

Biiscuits · 01/08/2019 22:21

I have a friend, who has a boy and a girl aged 9 and 12. The girl has learning difficulties.

She's a single mum, no dad, and works full time- proper full time- out the house 8-6. She's leaving the kids home alone these holidays every day.

I think they're far too young and not remotely sensible enough.

AIBU?

OP posts:
Armadillostoes · 02/08/2019 08:45

Would all of the people saying mind your own business be so smug and judgy about the OP if (God forbid) something happened to the children? If they are in a dangerous situation then it is the business of other adults to care.

It is impossible to tell from the OP how real the danger is though. So much depends on the character of the individuals. Leaving a 12 year old with responsibility for a 9 year old with additional needs doesn't sound good though.

LatteLove · 02/08/2019 08:46

Some people have no choice, it's leave them alone or no food/rent etc

She must have done something with them previous years

Child neglect is never OK, regardless of whether there’s “no choice” or not.

megletthesecond · 02/08/2019 08:47

It's not ideal. But seeing as holiday childcare is usually at least £40 a day she might by have much choice.
And a child will SEN may be better off at home than in a holiday club. My dd hates summer and can't cope with holiday clubs. My neighbours have to listen to and witness her meltdowns about them, I know I get judged on that too 🤷‍♀️.

PurpleDaisies · 02/08/2019 08:49

And a child will SEN may be better off at home than in a holiday club.

At home, yes. At home under the care of a 12 year old? That’s a different story.

PurpleDaisies · 02/08/2019 08:50

What are you actually going to do about this situation op?

DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult · 02/08/2019 08:51

I have to leave my dc of similar ages while I work.

They both have phones, are very sensible, and my work is a few minutes walk away and they can come in any time.

My older one had learning difficulties too (dyslexia) which effects precisely fuck all in this situation.

My 2 younger ones go into child care which costs me around a grand a month, I simply can't afford childcare for the older ones too. I've weighed up the risks and am comfortable with my choice.

I daresay some people would say they were too immature or unable but I know my kids better than anyone else. It certainly isn't child neglect Confused

Happyspud · 02/08/2019 08:55

Let’s of kids that wouldn’t be capable of this or trustworthy because they are babied by their parents till they are mid teens. How children ever learn independence in most British homes is beyond me.

gonewiththepotter · 02/08/2019 08:55

She has to work to keep a roof over their heads

Is a TERRIBLE excuse!

The vast majority of parents HAVE to work to keep a roof over their children’s heads but that does not make abandoning a 9 yo with special needs at home alone all day, OK!

The 12yo ‘might’ just about be acceptable although she’s still pushing it leaving them all day. At 12 I would think a couple of hours fine but not 8-6 Monday to Friday- Jesus!
But a 12yo is 100% not ok to be caring for a younger sibling with special needs!

If the 9yo was to suffer a terrible accident, who would be held accountable, 🤔 the 12yo? I don’t think so!

So no this is unacceptable and neglect!

Happyspud · 02/08/2019 09:03

I don’t think it’s necessarily neglect. At all. These kids may well be having an excellent life and home and support and training. Ironically possibly even much more so than hand-wringing posters on this thread. It really depends on so many factors, them minding themselves while there mum is at work may not indicate anything negative at all.

PopWentTheWeasel · 02/08/2019 09:12

I think this highlights how poor the child care options are out there. To the poster who asked, yes, Sainsbury's are doing holiday clubs, but only at certain locations around the country. We have one in our city, the next nearest is in the next city to us, about an hour's drive away, so this isn't something everywhere. We've struggled for paid childcare this summer as so much is aimed at entertaining bored kids on holiday, so runs with hours like 10-2. This isn't childcare, it's child entertainment. I have to be at work at 8.30 but I could only find one place that provided wrap-around care from 8am which wasn't astronomically priced (the other place that did it wanted £47 a day.)

OP, can you get to chat to her and ask about her plans for the summer, see what leave she has to take with the kids? You could have a look at what childcare there is out there and suggest a couple and see what she says. She may have an informal arrangement with a neighbour that they can go to her if there's a problem or something like that.

PeggySuehadababy · 02/08/2019 09:14

No humanity, no empathy, no wish to help a single mother working 8-6 to support her kids, as if being a lone parent was only her fault. Just a bunch of pathetic hand-wringing, pearl clutching cows looking from the side and commenting what a terrible parent she is. Because struggling to make ends meet is not an excuse on MN, and poor people are to blame for their own misfortune. And God forbid they decide to claim benefits, they get all the bashing.

Do you really think that everyone can afford a holiday club? Or has one conveniently providing childcare for a 12 years old? Or has a partner who breaks his back at work to allow the wife to have a "naice" part time comfy job so she can shuttle the kids to swimming and art classes? Open your eyes OP, there are thousands of parents in this exact situation in the UK right now. And not all of them are neglectful, they have no choice.

MatildaTheCat · 02/08/2019 09:14

My DN and DN are left all day and although I have reservations and wouldn’t personally do this, they have coped really well including going out clothes shopping and yes, working out a way of getting in when they were locked out.

Individual children vary a lot. These are independent and have had to be due to their parents work. They are also fairly sensible and get along together.

So it isn’t that clear cut and no doubt the mother would prefer to have a better arrangement in place.

LegionOfDoom · 02/08/2019 09:18

We definitely infantilise children in the UK and generally believe them to be a lot less competent than they really could be, given a chance

Ffs they’re kids! They should be allowed to be kids. 12 is too young to be responsible for a 9 year old. It’s not just about the safety element. How much fun can it be for a 12 year old to spend the summer cooped up inside, looking after a 9 year old, all day. What about socialising? Going to the park? Are they just sitting at home 5 days a week from 8-6? I can’t imagine a 12 year old being comfortable taking a 9 year old out. That’s so unfair.

UniversalAunt · 02/08/2019 09:21

Certainly not an ideal situation.

I’m concerned that two young children are without an adult’s care for extended periods at home & out-&-about. The extended holidays are too long a period for this-other people will notice.

Although you cannot step up directly, might you channel your energy into researching what is available locally - clubs, bursaries for clubs etc. I could assume that your friend has already done this & taken her decision with a heavy heart that this is her only way to keep her job. But if you approach this with a fresher mindset, you may help your friend find a workable solution. Might you know of someone who could offer some childcare support ? This may not have been suitable for yours but could be for your friend.

I understand the comments about duty of care & reporting to SS. Before I’d take that step, I’d talk with my friend & certainly make sure I had thought of & looked into as much as possible to support my friend & her kids, as a ‘cold’ comment into a formal organisation would irreparably damage your friendship & have unexpected long term consequences for the family.

Does your friend actually know how concerned you are?
Have you spoken with her & helped to find another way ?

Turn your worries into something constructive & helpful.

contrary13 · 02/08/2019 09:27

My 14 year old son is regularly left in sole charge of his younger siblings/cousins (ages 10 and 8) when he's with his father's family - he's responsible, sensible and pretty self-sufficient. I'm not overly happy about his father and stepmother placing the burden of respsonsibility for their children onto his shoulders, but, frankly, I also know that it's helping him to mature towards maybe one day being a hands-on-father (unlike his own, I have to add...).

My 23 year old daughter, on the other hand, has never been left in sole charge of her younger brother, because she doesn't pay attention to anyone/thing other than her various screens. It's not through lack of trying to get her to accept respsonsibility - it's because, as other posters have said, whilst one child can be sensible... another cannot, or will not. She babysat a friend's 9 year old child for a few hours once - and spent most of the evening on the 'phone to me in hysterics because the little girl wouldn't listen to her, wouldn't go to bed (I ended up having to instruct the child to behave, over the telephone, with the implied threat being that if she didn't? I would arrive on the doorstep... and I would not be overly impressed, if I had to do that - and nor would her mother!). Usually, the friend's little girl behaved herself and followed my daughter around like a puppy when we got together (both single mothers, near-neighbours at the time, we helped one another out with childcare), and my daughter had been keen to babysit her... but she didn't do it again, purely because I realised that it wasn't fair to put that responsibility onto her then teenage shoulders. I realised that night that if, say, my friend's house had caught fire... my daughter would have panicked, and not known how to cope with it. If it'd been my now 14 year old babysitting, though, he would have known what to do (he was 9 at the time, though, so...). Different children, different reactions.

OP, if you feel that the children are being placed into any danger, then I'm afraid you need to alert someone - because if, God forbid, anything were to happen to one or both of them? You would never forgive yourself for not stepping up to the plate.

bernietaupinspen · 02/08/2019 09:29

No humanity, no empathy, no wish to help a single mother working 8-6 to support her kids, as if being a lone parent was only her fault. Just a bunch of pathetic hand-wringing, pearl clutching cows looking from the side and commenting what a terrible parent she is. Because struggling to make ends meet is not an excuse on MN, and poor people are to blame for their own misfortune.

To be fair none of us actually know this to be the case. It's all good and well throwing the insults about when you have a point to defend, but for all you know the mother in question could just be a cunt.

Not saying she is, but you are not in a position to know, so perhaps stop being rude to people for also not knowing.

DinosaursWouldEatYou · 02/08/2019 09:29

Does the mother come home during her lunch break? Does a neighbour pop in every now and then to check on them? Do they have mobile phones and hourly text there mother?

What is the learning difficulty? In what way are they not ready/sensible?

How much is summer camp? How much is the rent on average in your area?

Does she pre-cook 3 meals a day for them? Does she lock anything potentially hazardous/dangerous away all in one room? Do they have a key to the front door with them? Has she written down set instructions on what to do in case of an/any emergency?

It's not right what she's doing, but trust me she already knows this. It probably wasn't an easy decision to come too, is there nothing you can do to help?

What are you planning on doing OP? Reporting her to SS?

bernietaupinspen · 02/08/2019 09:31

@gonewiththepotter

But a 12yo is 100% not ok to be caring for a younger sibling with special needs!

It's the 12 year old who is the girl? So the one with learning difficulties.

a boy and a girl. Age 9 and 12.

Suggests the boy is 9 and the girl 12

frogsoup · 02/08/2019 09:32

"no state primary school can release a child to someone under 16"

Absolute nonsense. Ours does!!!

LatteLove · 02/08/2019 09:32

No humanity, no empathy, no wish to help a single mother working 8-6 to support her kids, as if being a lone parent was only her fault. Just a bunch of pathetic hand-wringing, pearl clutching cows looking from the side and commenting what a terrible parent she is. Because struggling to make ends meet is not an excuse on MN, and poor people are to blame for their own misfortune.

FUCK OFF

gonewiththepotter · 02/08/2019 09:39

@bernietaupinspen

If anything that makes it worse!

So essentially the 12yo who is being ‘left in charge’ has additional needs AND is being forced to care for a 9yo.

Sorry but in my book the 9yo may as well be being left alone then!

gonewiththepotter · 02/08/2019 09:40

Only on MN could child neglect be deemed the fault of strangers not jumping in to help out! 🤔

IAskTooManyQuestions · 02/08/2019 09:40

I want to draw your attention to this article, a couple of years old, but still relevant today

It’s wrong, but we’ve lost the middle ground between making children responsible and resilient and putting upon them.

www.theguardian.com/society/2013/may/16/thousands-children-caregivers-family-data

Nearly 10,000 children aged five to seven are acting as unpaid carers for family members or guardians, according to figures that have been published which were described by one children's charity as the tip of the iceberg.
The data, compiled from the 2011 census, shows nearly a quarter of a million people under 19 in England and Wales were caring for parents, siblings and others – coping with pressures which charities say cause many to fall behind in school and miss out on their own childhoods.
An 80% increase in the number of five to seven-year-old carers in England over the last decade was one of the starker trends to emerge, although observers suggest this may be because the size of this group was under-reported in the past.
Of the 9,985 five- to seven-year-olds providing care, 1,642 are doing so for more than 50 hours a week, and 1,166 for between 20 and 49 hours. In the eight- to nine-year-old age bracket, 12,148 children are giving care, 1,520 for more than 50 hours a week and 1,204 for between 20 and 49 hours. Statistics on the levels of health among child carers revealed that more than 2,400 had bad or very bad health, while more than 9,000 said it was "fair".

Case study: 'I had to grow up'
For Jack Garrigan, the moment he had to very quickly start taking on adult responsibilities came last year when his mother, Louise, lost her sight after the sudden onset of a rare virus.
"Mum was in hospital for a month and it was over four weeks that I had to grow up really," says the 15-year-old, who, along with his sister Laura, 10, is among nearly a quarter of a million children in England and Wales caring for a relative.
In the case of the Garrigan family, from the Blackley district of Manchester, it involves Jack stepping in to cook, shop and, in his mother's words, ensure the household keeps running.
"The three of us work as a team, so we all do our bit," he says. "On a typical morning for example my sister would help my mum get dressed and I would prepare the breakfast and make sure that Laura is looking nice for school too."
The routine takes its toll – "Sometimes you can get tired, especially when there are school exams going on as well" – and the he admits to missing some things that other 15-year-olds enjoy. "I used to go to a drama club workshop but I can't do it any longer because there is no way of getting there and I have too much to do," he says.
But he adds matter-of-factly: "At the end of the day she is my mum and whatever I do, I do it because I have to and because I want to."
Concerned that her son is playing down his role in the family, Mrs Garrigan adds: "I don't think he really knows how much he does because it's so constant and we are in a routine now. He does my tablets and prescriptions. He basically keeps the house going."

bernietaupinspen · 02/08/2019 09:40

Of course!

I'm a bit baffled that anyone thinks this is ok.

Mumsnet parents are often so detached that as long as the practical needs are being met, emotional support and development gets overlooked.

IAskTooManyQuestions · 02/08/2019 09:43

The girl has learning difficulties

Just a small point - people seem to confuse learning difficulty (ie dyslexia) which wont affect maturity etc, with a learning disability (neurological impairment) which may impact maturity etc.

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