to lock DS1 and DD1 in separate rooms until they leave home?!

[SheBreathedNearMe]

I am past my wits end.

DS1 is 9. DD1 is 7. They genuinely cannot be in the same room together for more than 5 seconds without one or other screaming/hitting the other.

DS1 is very bright (HLP/gifted) - he is happy to be quiet and when he wants to talk/ask questions they have a point and a reason. Theories are thought out/have logic

DD1 is averagely clever (normal for her age) - she loves to talk/sing/hum generally make noise. she talks and sings for the pure fun of hearing her own voice. she will ask stupid/obvious questions in a clumsy attempt to get a conversation going, she speaks before thinking through what she says.

They have been quite reactive to each other since DD1 was around 4 but the last year to 18 months has escalated into something else. They both now assume the other is deliberately trying to annoy them and react as such. Examples:

So DD1 singing will promote DS1 to scream at her to shut up - but its 6 of one half a dozen of the other whether she was singing for fun or to wind him up.

DS1 will decide he needs to get his shoes out at the exact same moment as DD1 is looking for her's in the shoe box. She holds her ground so he screams and shoves her out of the way and she gets hurt. Either could have waited or moved slightly to the side so both could look in the box.

Generally DS1 is always watching what DD1 is doing, looking for something to tell tales about, just waiting for an excuse to kick off. DD1 will quite often deliberately come and start singing/imaginative playing right next to where DS1 is and under the guise of her toys coversation in her games will try and wind DS1 up.

They are absolutely both to blame as much as each other in different ways.

When either one isnt there we have nothing more than the usual sibling upsets with my other 2 (younger) DC. DS1 and DD1 on their own are a delight and lots of fun and very happy.

They have their own rooms so try and encorage them to play there so the other cant annoy them but they dont want to/refuse/have a major tantrum as they feel they are in trouble when it's the other one's fault.

Please someone give me some advice to break their habit of over-reacting to each other! I cant see how to stop this cycle.

any ideas? short of selling one of them...

Maybe the book Sibling Rivalry could help you? I found it quite helpful.

"Siblings without Rivalry"

i will have a look, thank you.

As you've realised, this needs nipping in the bud right now. Your son's intelligence is not relevant.

In 4 years he'll be 14 and she 11....imagine a 14 year old boy shoving an 11 year old girl?

Can't be allowed to continue.

What I would do is the moment he pushes her, then immediately remove something he values.

He can have it back after he's behaved for a decent amount of time...say 4 hours.

If she sings in his space or similar, tell him he MUST let you know and you will immediately stop her from doing that.

Tell her that if she's seen deliberately winding him up, she will also have things removed.

Your son being cleverer than his sister is totally irrelevant.

In your shoes example only he was to blame. He could have asked her to move aside, but sounds like he was as goady with ‘needing’ his shoes right at the same second as she was getting hers

We have a zero tolerance to getting physical here so he’d have got punished for that - something removed or sent to his room.

With the singing then if she’s deliberately goading him then definitely deal with it. However be careful that the fact it annoys him doesn’t stop her from being allowed to do it.

I wasn’t allowed to do anything noisy as a child as it made my brother explode. According to him everything was to get at him. Sometimes it was. Other times I was just being a kid.

No advice I’m afraid but my two were exactly the same at that age and I’d have put money on them never speaking to each other again once they were old enough to leave home.

However, fast forward 20 years and they are now so close that when my daughters marriage broke up she went to live with my son and his family for a whole year, only moving out because she wanted them to have their own family time together despite them begging her to stay.

I cannot overstate how much they used to aggravate each other from the moment they got up (and sometimes before as my son would annoy her remotely through playing gremlin type music outside her door increasing noisily) til they went to bed. It used to really wear me down and as you say was always 6 of one and half a dozen of the other

I think you’d have to go a long way before finding siblings closer than these two now, it’s lovely but baffling to me how such closeness can come from such antagonist behaviour. He is now a carpenter and she a lawyer so completely different skill sets and ambitions too!

It all went over my other sons head, he was seemingly oblivious to it all and gets on with both though not as close to either one as they are with each other.

henny thanks for replying.

The intelligence thing was more to illustrate that they are very different - the intelligence gap means DS finds DD 'stupid' which 'annoys' him. Part of the problem with HLP kids is they can struggle coping with people who cant keep up with their level of thinking. (we've had him assessed, this isn't a PFBGenius situation!)

What you've said is what i've been trying to do - DS cannot get past the point that if DD didn't annoy him he wouldn't lash out. then feels its only him being punished. I cant watch them every second so i have no idea who started it/who's more a fault. obviously if i see it i punish/send to room/remove privileges as appropriate.

If one or other comes and says 'DS/DD is doing X to annoy me' the other will automatical say they weren't - no idea who is lying!!

This is what i'm finding so hard - no idea if they are genuinely winding each other up on purpose or just overreacting to each other.

In both your examples, the older child is the one turning it into a fight, first by screaming then by shoving. Is that typical? He is 9, and should know to walk away from a conflict - and definitely not to push, we generally tend to stay out of fights but have a zero tolerance policy for anything physical..

Agree with pps about Siblings Without Rivalry. I also think they need to jointly get involved in sorting this out - the book has some good ideas for this. I think separating them actually makes it worse (I do know your thread title was a joke!), they need to find a way to coexist even if not getting along.

lyra that's the crux of the problem - i can see that DD always singing/talking annoys him (it drives me nutty on occassion too) but i dont want to stop her enjoying herself as it may upset DS - i have no idea how to strike this balance between them.

again, the intellegence comment was in the interests of full disclosure, not wanting to drip feed!

Ignore the intelligence, find the culprit and deal with it. At this time of year perhaps take them out away from the home to run it off. Play dates so there is someone to entertain them. We always seemed to have a houseful of kids which does dilute it and they do behave better in company.

DS cannot get past the point that if DD didn't annoy him he wouldn't lash out.

That needs to be stamped on hard. He can’t go around lashing out because people annoy him.

Does he lash out at school? If not then he can control it with his sister but is choosing not too (that was my lightbulb with one of mine so I’m not being harsh for harsh sake)

You seem like you prefer your older child. I agree the responsibility mainly lies with the elder child, he should know better and he sounds generally goady. What does HLP mean? Higher learning potential?

She sounds like a normal 7 year old. In all those examples your son is the problem in my opinion. He has a superiority complex that you are reinforcing. He has no right to shove her or dismiss her as stupid and annoying. She’s allowed to be herself and sing and play in her own house!

shebreathed He needs to remove himself when he feels he’s getting wound up.

Then you can have a time where you tell DD she has to be quiet because you are watching tv/playing a game/talking to DS as well.

DS cannot get past the point that if DD didn't annoy him he wouldn't lash out. then feels its only him being punished. I cant watch them every second so i have no idea who started it/who's more a fault. obviously if i see it i punish/send to room/remove privileges as appropriate

Doesn't matter what she's doing, he chose to lash out. I have sons and I'm very conscious that the boy who gets away with saying 'but she (or he) made me so annoyed that I couldn't help but push her' can easily become the teenager and man who says exactly the same thing. For us, violence is always the fault of the one committing it.

The book we'd mentioned earlier has some good tips to stop you having to play police officer, it really helped with my squabbling eldest two.

mynx that gives me some hope at least!!

stuck yes i would say that DS is usually the one that turns it physically, but DD goes out of her way to make sure he reacts to her - refusing to move slightly so he could also get to the shoe box for example.

I have zero tolerance on violence too but DS is getting insensed by the fact he feels pushed to violence by her and she gets no punishment for irritating him/being awkward.

I dont expect them to be best friends, i just expect them to be civil!!

but DD goes out of her way to make sure he reacts to her - refusing to move slightly so he could also get to the shoe box for example.

That’s totally ignoring the fact he deliberately goaded her by waiting until she was getting her shoes to decide he needed his now.

Can he cope with other children of any age not being as bright as he sees himself? If so then he needs to be able to control himself the same way around his sister.
If not you have a bigger problem than you think.

I don't prefer DS but i don't believe all fault lies with the eldest as they are older and should know better (i'm also an oldest child). At 7 DD should also know not to be deliberately irritating to him.

I absolutely do not condone violence and he loses screen time/board game time and gets set to his room to calm down but he has a complete meltdown that it isnt fair. I completely agree he cannot be allowed to hit but i wouldn't put it past DD to diliberately taunt him into it knowing he will get into trouble (i know as i did the same to my bro as a child and DD and i are very similar!!)

i am going to look up that book.

Yanbu. I'd like to split my house into three and I live in the middle. A child on either side.

none of these issues at school. it is particular to him and his sister. they just rub each other up the wrong way.

I have zero tolerance on violence too but DS is getting insensed by the fact he feels pushed to violence by her and she gets no punishment for irritating him/being awkward

He has to learn that life is full of irritating and awkward people, he can't go around screaming at them and pushing them. I do feel sympati, my ds2 sounds a lot like him and sometimes I feel that being very bright can be a hindrance in these situations, as it makes them so convinced that they are right. Thing is, he's 9 and not that small any more, and he has to realise that pushing a 7 year old is totally unacceptable, far beyond being awkward. After we tried the book, ds2 started writing lists of ways his big brother annoyed him, which seemed to help - hopefully your ds can find an outlet too.

lyra possibly yes he could have waited until she finished. Reading back i guess more fault lies with DS (violence aside, i know that is completely his fault) in terms of the arguments.

I need to break the cycle of them reacting to each other. they cannot work together on anything without an argument.

the intelligence gap means DS finds DD 'stupid' which 'annoys' him

This is nothing to do with his intelligence. ALL older siblings find this annoying. Mine did and none of mine are gifted.

He's older. Of course he thinks she's silly.

Stop making excuses for him. And victim blaming. SHE is not causing him to hit her.

That's HIS decision. Make him own it. It's not on at all and I've said the same to my older DD when she's hit her younger sister for being annoying.

It's bullying!