to lock DS1 and DD1 in separate rooms until they leave home?!

[SheBreathedNearMe]

I am past my wits end.

DS1 is 9. DD1 is 7. They genuinely cannot be in the same room together for more than 5 seconds without one or other screaming/hitting the other.

DS1 is very bright (HLP/gifted) - he is happy to be quiet and when he wants to talk/ask questions they have a point and a reason. Theories are thought out/have logic

DD1 is averagely clever (normal for her age) - she loves to talk/sing/hum generally make noise. she talks and sings for the pure fun of hearing her own voice. she will ask stupid/obvious questions in a clumsy attempt to get a conversation going, she speaks before thinking through what she says.

They have been quite reactive to each other since DD1 was around 4 but the last year to 18 months has escalated into something else. They both now assume the other is deliberately trying to annoy them and react as such. Examples:

So DD1 singing will promote DS1 to scream at her to shut up - but its 6 of one half a dozen of the other whether she was singing for fun or to wind him up.

DS1 will decide he needs to get his shoes out at the exact same moment as DD1 is looking for her's in the shoe box. She holds her ground so he screams and shoves her out of the way and she gets hurt. Either could have waited or moved slightly to the side so both could look in the box.

Generally DS1 is always watching what DD1 is doing, looking for something to tell tales about, just waiting for an excuse to kick off. DD1 will quite often deliberately come and start singing/imaginative playing right next to where DS1 is and under the guise of her toys coversation in her games will try and wind DS1 up.

They are absolutely both to blame as much as each other in different ways.

When either one isnt there we have nothing more than the usual sibling upsets with my other 2 (younger) DC. DS1 and DD1 on their own are a delight and lots of fun and very happy.

They have their own rooms so try and encorage them to play there so the other cant annoy them but they dont want to/refuse/have a major tantrum as they feel they are in trouble when it's the other one's fault.

Please someone give me some advice to break their habit of over-reacting to each other! I cant see how to stop this cycle.

Yes I’m going to try and find some small good elements to give him tokens for, I think it needs to start small with him, he got one this morning for getting through the morning routine without a fight. Maybe there is an element of me also assuming the worst from him as he’s been so volatile and missing the good bits, or them being overshadowed by the bad. Will be more aware of this.

You know best what will work for him. I think one hour of computer isn't very much for a high-functioning child who might love a game like Minecraft, especially if he hasn't actually had it for weeks. I don't think TV or computers are bad in these types of situations, my children are both very bright and loved Minecraft at this age, and watching age-appropriate stuff, it seems everyone could do with some down time and switch off time and I might actually allow more of this, not less:)

The only time I have stopped a child going on a big day out was over physical kicking us, and my husband took the one child and I stayed home with the other. It was worth detonating that option as it never happened again, but generally I am not a fan of 'big' punishments, calming everyone down and finding out what's going on by talking is usually better. I have never done anything so drastic before or since. But physical violence is crossing a line in my household and isn't allowed at all whatsoever ever.

Waiting a whole week for 1h of PlayStation time is just too long. Strip it back. Make it daily. And aim for finding the good.

Had a good day? Right, that's 20mins PlayStation or similar. Had a bad day? No worries, we can all try again tomorrow.

If he hits, it's straight to his room to calm down and think things through, an apology to the child in question and a consequence of something he really loves.

This - though I wouldn't take things away for a week - I usually do till clam down or overnight at worse. We also rewarded with TV or minecraft on good days or trip to park if that's what they wanted.

We found token and rewards systems/charts didn't work with DS he was indifferent or more likely to kick off and weren't impacting much on his sisters either way - so allowing children's TV or them on a computer was what we used or being given a magazine or colouring book.

i am feeling completely overwhelmed by it, i feel like i want to give up as no amount ofr punishment/being calm/keeping them apart/rewards/one on one time seems to be making a blind bit of difference and i dont know what to do next.

glad to see you've ordered the book op. it will give you a new approach as you are correct no amount of using your current one is going to work. it'll take time but you'll get there!

I think maybe banning the word stupid to describe a child would be a positive start.

Physical meanness should be an absolute no no with immediate consequences.

Maybe your dd is doing things that you and he see as a reactive demand because she'd like more positive interaction with him.

Saying your daughter is wittering to herself isn't very nice. It's a critical word where I come from and I agree with other posters, it sounds like you favour your bright child. If more than one of us gets that from reading a handful of posts you have to take seriously the fact your daughter might feel it.

You have to deal with each situation as it happens. If one genuinely winds up another another and you deal with it then ten minutes later one complains unfairly about the sibling you don't bring in what went before.

I have three kids. All very bright, two exceptional and one of them has little time for her younger "just bright" sibling. Some stuff is regular sibling friction, some intolerance but they've never been physical and never deliberately wound another up for any reason.

Hi think coming up with different consequences rather than taking away his tokens might work. When ds was repeating the same behaviour I asked what he'd prefer. He said take away his lap top charger as then he could see his lap top but not be able to use it which would have a bigger effect, he was slightly older than your son is though.

It is tough parenting any age but you can't let things get out of hand.

I agree with the not manhandling. Dh tried to make ds do as he was told and gave him two choices. He chose the one I didn't want him too and it was a stressful night. Next time I'd leave ds in his room for all to calm down and I wouldn't allow dh to do or say what he did.

Good luck but do get help and make sure everyone in the house understand the guidelines, dh included.

well so far so good this afternoon. I have told DS if he makes it to the younger DCs bedtime with no violence he can go on his online maths programme/game which he is excited about. he has already earned 2 tokens for avoiding an argument with DD (suggesting looking up the answer instead of his usual shouting at her that he is right).

Those suggesting more regular computer time - sorry, just no. not happening. i have no intention of encouraging them to spend more time on screens. they aren't overly bothered, enjoy their weekend time but never ask for extra in the week. we are not a techy family - we dont own ipads/tablets and just have one family pc.

DD has done a stint in her room for throwing a hissy fit at me as i wouldn't give her ice cream .

from earlier posts - yes i absolutely call DS out if he calls DD stupid or similar. he is always made to apologise.

DD does witter, there is no way around that, she sings and chatters incessantly. and it can be exhausting!! and irritating. but of course i dont tell her that or make her feel second best because of it.

If he hits, it's straight to his room to calm down and think things through, an apology to the child in question and a consequence of something he really loves.

yet don't talk to him to find out what is going on in his head.

Reading with interest! When mine are playing well I time it in my mind and discreetly seperate them before it degenerates. Later, I praise them for playing well. Leaves them satisfied and wanting a little more!

DD does witter, there is no way around that, she sings and chatters incessantly

I have one like this so I sympathise BUT mine does that because her processing is entirely aural - she needs to hear things - the difference in her comprehension when she reads aloud and when she reads silently is staggering - so much so she gets her own room for exams etc. Given that your son is not NT is it possible that she isn't either? It might be worth looking into as if she is like mine then being told to shut up is potentially a problem if she is eg doing homework (which will be an issue as she progresses through school and needs to use the internet for homework etc if there is a shared computer).

Another point - children who sing all the time are often very musical - have you explored the possibility of music lessons for her - 7 is a good age to start as they have better motor skills and are still keen to learn new things? It might be good for her self esteem to have something she is good at?

london my mum says she is just like me as a child and i am NT so i dont think there is more to her than just that is her personality. When she is writing a story for example she does that in silence. She's booked to start a woodwind instrument in september to channel her music love! also looking at finding a junior choir for her hopefully.

Still going well, all played a nice game of foil boats in the bath which i found a reason to end after 15mins so they could end on a good note. currently playing well in the garden. maybe my 'scary mum' tactic this morning worked?!?

Maybe not so much Scary Mum, but more Mum In Charge. If DS didn’t feel that before he maybe tried to step in instead to creat order out of the (auditory) chaos, but using violence as he doesn’t have the skills to do otherwise.

Removing tokens after they are earned negates the effort of working for them. Whatever DC do later on, if they earned that token (assuming they had really earned it and weren't just given it) they shouldn’t lose it. The next step will be to either see them as pointless and not bother trying to earn them as they can be lost, or to try to manipulate the situation so the siblings lose tokens as well to even things up.

Those suggesting more regular computer time - sorry, just no. not happening. i have no intention of encouraging them to spend more time on screens.

I think you should reconsider this for your oldest, and let him try programming. Personally I like 'small basic' to learn coding, he can write a program to have a turtle move around a screen and draw a pattern.

Once you download it you do not need to be connected to the internet.

From what you have said, engineering kit, reading he could be good at this. He doesn't need to be on the computer all the time, you can write the program on paper and then type into the computer.

Why can't the punishment be if he acts up, he goes to bed/his room EARLIER than his siblings, instead of getting to stay up late with his parents?

If my DS was throwing tantrums, I'd tell him he was clearly tired and off to bed for the night. He could try again tomorrow when he's had enough sleep.

Your son is the problem.
He needs to learn a few things:

That your DD is clearly a more creative intellect with her singing and that we should respect other people's talents.

Also, that your DD lives there too. As well as it being his home to do things he likes, it's also hers.

I'd suggest to them both that if they've got an issue with the other either find a parents or go to their room and chill out for 5 mins.

I know your not into tech but your ds may enjoy something like raspberry pi/ bbc microbit - you can get great starter kits ideal for a smart kid - which are great as have an outcome that isnt necessarily about screen time (you can make robots/speakers etc)

could be a summer project for him to do in quiet time to keep him mentally engaged.....if you think the boredom of end of term is a factor..
or a musical instrument for him as well - music uses different brain pathways so good for bright kids - many recomend music/languages as enrichment for bright kids rather than just chucking extra curriculum at them.... learning the theory and sight reading can be challenging as well
(and thinking ahead music depts/rooms can be good places for quieter kids to find space in secondary school )

I do think its mum in charge that works - your heading to teen time and he is likely to be bigger/stronger than you physically so you need to have a mechanic that works...

I have worked with a man who was not NT who had grown up with the covert messages that it's OK really to hit people if they really wind you up. He was in danger of being sent to a secure unit. It did him no favors to be 'understanding' in this way. You can be understanding of his distress but never of violence in any form whatsoever.

Your son is clearly delayed in some aspects of his development. And to that end he needs very clear messages, possibly some help to better understand and manage his emotions, but also help to structure a more positive environment for him. I've read some of your messages and been struck by how very 'open' (I can't put it better, sorry!) your home is. This may work for many but as someone who is very sensorily sensitive (maybe your son is too??) I think some house rules and alternate ways of doing things would benefit. Rules in our house which might work well in yours include that it's fine to be noisy, but only in your own room with the door shut (talking out loud if you're thinking is one thing, but noisy toys, singing - I don't think kids should think they can just to that anywhere. They need to learn to think of others). Wait for someone else to finish using an item before you use it so shoe cupboard, you just have to wait until it's free, sink at bed time - similar. Sharing these sorts of things/ doing them together is quite aversive.

You have a lot of children and not much time from your OH. I'd also want to make sure that you have alone time with each child (even if just twice a week each) as sometimes children's behaviour can be helped by that and your son may think better and process better with you when no-one else is around. You can do something nice with each child - dependent on what they like. I don't mean expensive, a card game, reading a story, anything they like.

The only other thing I wondered about was your history with violence. I wondered whether you have been around violence in your own past and in some way come to think of it as inevitable or normal? It seems like you make excuses for your son sometimes which made me wonder whether others have made excuses for violence towards you (or which you saw)? May not be that but our own histories with aggression can impact on how we respond if we meet it as an adult.

What a shame you stopped a pleasant time after 15 minutes rather then giving the kids a chance to play nicely for as long as they want, or if it went wrong for you to learn to deal with it and help them sort out disagreements themselves.

Actually, Sunshine I think there’s a lot to be said for finishing on a high, and most mums can tell when their DC are getting into ‘tears before bedtime’ mode. I certainly stop play when it’s getting to a certain pitch / type that I know will end in someone (possibly me) getting cross.

OP On the computer time, I’m also a bit conflicted about that, and I do limit screentime much more than other parents I know. But the ipad apps do really fill a need for intellectual stimulation that is otherwise hard to do when you have other DC, not to mention a house to run and a job to keep. Have a look at Dragonbox - it’s basically teach yourself algebra, up to quite a complex level. There are others that are similar - I think the holidays are the time to let HLP children get really stuck in to something, in the way they can’t in term time. They tend to be good at that sort of focus and concentration, and to enjoy it.

another day with no violence! a couple of minor misbehaviours but nothing out of the realms of ordinary kids stuff.

DD has been making a nuisance of herself, trying to sneak off to annoy DS but he has come straight to me rather than lashing out.

I have allowed DS half an hour on a coding site he uses at school as a reward for a non-violent day which he enjoyed last night and tonight.

The reason i stopped the happy play is to try and get them to know that play doesnt have to end in a fight. obviously i wont always do this but i want to get them to associate play with fun, not fighting!

DS plays an instrument so i will be encouraging plenty of practise over the summer.

sunglass i have no experience with violence in my past at all.

I disagree with @SunshineCake. A child who is consistently violent isn't going to learn to work it out. He needs to learn new pattern with a lot of adult input. I think you played it well OP. Keep going with mom in charge.

I'm not sure I'd reward violent free days. That needs to be your normal. I would come down like a ton of bricks when he is violent and take loads away. With a violent kid your reaction is going to have to be bigger than his. He can't back you down.

Glad you’ve had better days. Mine are like little wet rags with tiredness. I step up the cuddles and soppy stuff at the end of term to help get them through it.

If there had been a deliberately winding-up element to DD's behaviour, you could have expected it to increase as she would be making greater attempts to provoke her brother.

As, by your descriptions, it hasn’t, you probably have your answer about her motivation - she's just being "her", as PP have said all along. She just needs some guidance/ rules as to what is allowed where.

I think you we’re making too many allowances for your DS’s HLP. It is good you are finding strategies now as he will be using his intelligence as a tool when he is a teenager. There is also a longer term issue that he may start to define himself by his intelligence.
(Excuse the potential stealth boast - I joined Mensa as a teenager and I was struck by some of the people who seemed to think life owed them something because they had a high IQ).
Look up descriptive praise if you are not already using it.

I am concerned that your younger DC could end up in his shadow and that it remains really important to explore their potential too.

These books might give you some more strategies too
The Explosive Child
Calmer, Easier, Happier Parenting